Very well said and right on the money, but the problem is that Soe thinks it made a mistake by giving bards all the aDPS they already have, and they do not want to repeat that mistake by giving us a weaker version of it. But the only way to make us compete with bards is to give us aDPS that can effect both melee and casters.
Do you use runes in every group? I only use them on nameds, and you could do better to have a druid in my place to AE heal or something else. What about learner's aura? A 5% boost to exp? Do some experimenting on it, you get more bang from your buck from other things unless your with melee and have no choice. As to how have I determined? By grouping with rogues in my guild for several days and finding that my endurance regen doesn't increase their sustained dps by that much. If they are just sitting around not using their endurance often, then sure.. slackers will get a nice full endurance bar. The ones who aren't slacking are still going to have to med once in a while with it running, period. No one is asking to be better than or equal to bards.. we are asking that we be given some sort of ADPS for melee that makes us even viable when a bard isn't around. So back to ignoring you.. I understand why your avatar is a troll.
Don't get me wrong, if you give me some great adps I'm not going to complain about getting it. If that's what it takes for you guys to be happy then by all means go for it and great. At the same time, I just don't want to lose focus of what I view as being truly important to the class. We got harder zones this last expansion from what I've seen. You get random adds in one zone I've tried, and others have areas that are a bit tough to pull. The more the game develops in that area, the more I'll view enchanters as a great class. If we have another expansion like HoT, where it seemed like everything was a complete cakewalk (aside from library group instance, fear group instance, and miraguls raid I think I did a grand total of nothing in that expansion cc wise) then I'll end up siding with the whole adps boost people more and more because I want the class to stay relevant, but I'd much rather the content actually be challenging instead. Content that warrants CC and getting abilities to allow enchanters to be relevant in content that doesn't warrant CC are two different paths, and if you are giving me personally a choice, I'd choose to have content that warrants cc over some aura or buff every single time. You'd have to be absolutely crazy or incompetent not to. On the other hand, it's nice to have a buffer for when content is unchallenging to still be useful. If you guys get the class some better adps I'm not going to complain about it lol.
Also, I think the issue with bard dps is that it stacks in a percentage sort of way, which quickly gets out of hand. If they give more adps in a way that is incremental it would get around that (similar to how mana reiterate works, but not really similar to how twincast works even though I like twincast). If you make a suggestion (which is always a good idea if you want something), I'd keep that in mind.
Yes, I use runes in every group. Shouldn't I? You keep asking questions, and then answering them yourself, and yet you accuse me of trolling! Wow! Melees who don't use their Endurance much gain more benefit from our end regen than those who do??? Who's the troll? Yeah, go back to ignoring me.
I think sometimes differences of view like this occur when both parties are serious but have different perspectives due to different situations. What levels are you two? What level of gear do you have? do you group with people that are at the absolute top of the game/server you are on, or are you somewhere else (I'm just talking gear and aa, skill and ego is not something I'm trying to pull into this) in the spectrum? I would be surprised if you are both in the same basic position but have such different views. I'd like to hear the justifications for both without them becoming attacks or insults.
I have a magelo in my sig if you would like to see it. I'm level 100, around 5800 aa, and a group player. I don't raid much anymore, so my concern is mostly the group game.
I'm also level 100, around 4500 AA, and mostly a group player. I have raided seriously long ago, and do dabble in raiding today. I think more than any other class, Enchanters can have different play styles, but that doesn't seem to be so much of the case here. I hope I'm wrong.
Since when do any tanks have any problems holding aggro in today's game, that they will need some weak buff to help them out. What in the world does a small rune do, to help bring down names. I have never been able to bring down a tough name by chaining runes on my tank, it has never been the enchanter that made the difference between a win or a loose but instead one of my other classes bringing something else to the table. In the old days, what killed the tank, was either the healer going OOM, or not being able to keep up with the heals, but in today's game a tank goes down, once his main disc are down and he gets hit with a bad string where he looses 50K HP's at once, and the odds of an enchanters rune being on that tank, right at that moment is very rare. The shorter period of time, a tank is using secondary defense disc's, the greater the odds of a win, which makes dps king in a named fight, thanks to names with huge amount of HP's. Melee do have a buff that allows them to regen endurance faster by a fair amount per tick, so our minor endur regen buff does not mean to much to any melee, not compared to other thinks other classes bring. Why would any group want learner's aura, when they can get more experience per hour, by having a real dps class in the group. Dude you really need to wake up and see what the other classes can bring to the table, compared to us, when it comes to killing names faster, and in the end it is all about killing names because that is where the loot is.
Couple of comments from a nearly entirely raiding chanter, or 'bottom feeder' if you believe other posters. ROF is complete unless I decide to do the hunter achievements. They bumped our "dps" via nukes and DOTs somewhat (so we are less laughable) but we aren't real DPS. Current content (ROF) is a yawn regarding CC, for most mercenary and partisan tasks I duoed it with the chanter and a box War. None of it essentially needed a chanter to do (e.g. with patience and such I could pull with the War a large fraction of the time and single stuff) - that's a definition of easy pulling. Several of the group missions are hugely broken, and essentially stupid as regards the mobs marked no-mez, no-stun, no change to run speed .. la la la = off tank and handle it or die. The raids have a rather minimum cc need and none of the mechanics that I have seen could not be addressed by classes other than chanters. Note my guild is always recruiting more bards and the chanter class is 'no more needed' with only 2 pretty much full attendance and one about 2/3s. The raid leader would certainly change that if chanters had any real value in melee groups to add aDPS So Sony built an expansion that makes me fairly sad, yet again chanters are the 'red headed step children' in the silk and a cc optimized class without content to cc... I don't like to go get xp solo, so the cute charm stuff holds very little interest. I don't go farming in old content so tools for lots of slaughter are moot. Things that would help the raiding crowd: 1) Yes give us a bit of stuff to help aDPS in melee groups, auras would be fine - like a baby overhaste 2) Drop our spell casting time by a bit, say 10% faster across the board 3) Give us a pulling tool with a few minute refresh, as it stands we are either sloooow pullers or any idiot could pull fast because the mobs are just set up that way For all you purists, I like BG and CH the best of current zones, Meanwhile, any idea when the next expansion comes out, hoping Sony might make a cool expansion for chanters by mistake.
Well I was going to respond, but you beat me to it, but i'd say our end. regen is about as useful as putting clarity on a level 100 wizard
Just to give an idea to my play style, I am a puller by nature. I prefer to know how many mobs are coming, and be able to control that. In 90% of my groups I am the one pulling. Up until RoF I pulled 6-8 mobs and mezzed them, then sat in camp holding them down while dpsing. With RoF I find pulling more than 2-3 can be dangerous at best, if not to me, to the ones in the group. I group most of the time with a paladin tank, a mage, a wizard, (rogue or a monk) cleric merc and myself (but I group with anyone I know or who is in my guild LFG as I can.) I typically aim for caster heavy groups and run twincast/mana reverb. I do switch to Mastermind occasionally if someone is running low on mana. If I end up in a melee centric group I do switch to mastermind and based on what I'm doing I also run either charm aura or learners. I charm in every group, even when pulling, unless there isn't a mob around to charm. I find charming is much less dangerous for me, than it is for my group mates. If it breaks at the wrong time, say I'm out pulling, and turns on a rogue or a monk (some of ours aren't full level yet or even close in AA) they can die well before I can be back to get it under control. Our tank usually has no problem living through it, but sometimes a bad round makes that an issue too. (The mage pet though is a fine backup tank, sometimes even a better main tank .) I run with full buffs when I can, Stun Rune, health rune (eldritch now, with the other as a backup when it's down), veil. I use all three of our dots on each mob when they live long enough, mana tap when they don't. I usually single or double pull at most, keeping a mob mezzed in camp at all times. So I guess that's a quick run down on how I play, without going into specifics (how I pull, what spells I keep mem.. etc.)
I was right. With minor exceptions, I play the same way Jehmal does. Exceptions being that while I more often than not end up pulling for groups, I prefer not to. When I do, I use echo auras, primarily Mastermind, since I don't need mana. (I explain to everyone that at 6% mana, I'm fully-operational.). I'm finding I can use both VoMs and ER all the time now, since it's rare I get hit. I keep Phantasmal Unity ready just in case. The big difference is that while I do have strong friends in a raiding guild, and I have a static weekly group of top players, I often join/form PUGs (Pick-Up Groups). I like to meet new people, and take long walks in dangerous dungeons. I'm a glacially slow puller. However, when mobs do arrive in camp, they're already Tashed, Slowed, Deep Sleeped, and Confounding Constrictioned. Once I get started, pulls are constant as I keep at least one mezzed and debuffed in camp. I don't understand how BG can be an enchanter's favorite zone. I don't have a big issue that the zone exists, but with just about everything in there immune to just about everything we do, and then wiping in one of the BG missions due to my runes being used against us, I don't see the attraction.
I like reading the enchanter threads. It's 2-4 people disagreeing about their class every single time.
Wow Qest, I actually like that post...and who cares if your fast or slow at pulling, pull at your own speed, live group members will appreciate it more
I am a recently returned player using 3 silver level accounts. I started at level 80/1820 wearing raid gear from TSS/RoF when I returned with all but my quest augs disabled. I struggled a bit getting to 82, but once I did I felt charm and the experience and questing gathered with it were right on the money. Using my bot army (ench/clr/wiz) with 3 mercs I've had success doing some named mobs in SoD. I'm currently level 87. My plan at this point is to get to level 92 and try to do the SoD, UF and HoT progression to my best ability. My tradeskills are maxed out so I also plan to do shawl 2.0. At 87, I am able to xp in Feerrott, the Dream easily but have not been able to kill a named mob yet. I can't have an opinion on the current content, but for the content that I am in currently, it rocks. The addition of mercs has allowed me to do stuff I was never able to do before and I'm loving it! It sounds like the dual wielding thing is a real issue, but having haste built into the charm is unbelievable and is the sole reason I have set my goal to get to 92 before starting in on AAs. Given my game pace it is cheaper for me to unlock AAs rather than go Gold. Now if only they would only provide item and Journeyman merc unlockers (progression tasks required) too! Charm on! Miz
At the moment, I'm 97 with about 8000 aa. If this were a year ago I would be 100 and have experienced everything in the expansion, but time makes fools of us all. I charm all the time. If there is a zone above my level where I would not be able to charm, it's rare you'd even find me there unless it's with a group that doesn't even need me. I pull all the time as well. If I had a fraps of Underfoot when Brell's Temple came out, I think I could introduce you to my play style better than in any other case in the game. Even though a lot of things were immune, that's what made it challenging. I generally go for maximum efficiency and safety with pulling, since charm could still break whenever. I'll pull one mob at a time if it is possible, but I hate when pullers wait too long to pull because every second that you have to wait for a new mob to be in camp, you are basically wasting the dps of the entire group. With the addition of chaotic nukes, sometimes I'll try to pull 2 so that I can mez one and twincast off of it for more dps, but it depends on the speed of the group vs the content given. At this point, I play for that sort of challenge. It was great because it wasn't impossible, but it was very difficult. That zone I think I have undervalued until thinking about this, but it would have basically been the next sebilis if it's reward was great enough. I usually use mana reiterate aura and twincast aura if the group has casters that have large nukes. If the group is mostly hybrids for nukers I'll run mana reiterate aura and either learners or mana regen. There has been a case or two when I ran the lower mr aura because casters complained of resists, but that is a bit of a rarity. I have tried pulling as other classes, and I think that is why I view enchanters as "ok" even though we aren't getting even more specialties. I found that even though other classes could do things that were surprising as far as pulling goes, I could pull things much faster, and at times more safely on an enchanter. When the pets are decent dps, you can pull while having the pet do damage at the same time, so in that regard I'm filling two roles. Even though my dps role in a bit weaker than a real dps class, there are also slow and debuffs. I find that if I really try at it, I can do more on an enchanter than I could do on any other class in the game for most groups. To be fair though, I haven't got nearly as much experience with other classes, but I have some. My experiences grouping as other classes (almost every time with no enchanter in the group) is what leads me to think that enchanters are good. As for levels of groupmates, and their gear etc.. that goes all around the spectrum for me. I've had elite groups with all the top players on my server, and I've had groups with people that really need the group to get levels or aa. -with that said, pets that don't dual wield in the current content can turn all of that into being a second class groupmate. I don't care if I'm not the absolute most dps in the group, but I'd like to do more while pulling than a different class could due to the inherent risks involved.
Hello this discussion about DPS and ADPS is seemingly endless. From my perspective the things written, or demanded, often give me the feeling i am playing a different game than what you play. What perspective is that? Seen from my point of view Enchanter 100, maxed out AA, mostly RoF t1/2 raid loot, member of medium sized raid guild with family character raiding high end actual content, in fact only Xorbb raid missing. I dont have an issue with our DPS. About soloing. I was experimenting around a bit lately while doing hunter. Honestly soloing is a bit harsh in Shards Landing. Only few mobs give a useful pet chance, and moving is with a charm pet a real pain. Once changed to EW the situation turning to the opposite. Ever charmed a wooly mammoth? I was soloing and moloing fear apartions, roamers, giants in the fort, coldain huts and so on. Only trouble was to break in and hold the right room in orc fort because of agro through wall etc. I moloed nameds (wooly mammoth pet), which wasnt easy, but its doable and not too risky. My usual setup when moloing with charm pet is tash, slow, highest nuke actual expansion (100 Mind Cleave rk2), highest nuke last expansion (95 mind scythe rk2), 3 latest dots, chaotic mezz, placeable AoE mezz, charm, plus support spells depending on situation. If you have a slot for single target stun, it can be helpful, but not on nameds. On raids, allthough we dont parse very intense, we are working with 3 chanters. Our guild is not DPS heavy, but still quite good in DPS. At least 2 of 3 Enchanters are always in the top 10 when the fight takes at least 3 minutes or ideally longer than 5 minutes. Our DPS roams around 27K in the low burns and around 40K in the good burns. On damage done over all we always end up upper third. This even while we debuff, rebuff, cc and rune/spellguard permanently. When we fight raid mobs it often happens that our tanks are eaten. The longer the fight lasts, the higher the chanters climb the agro list. When tanks need to change often the chanters are the ones that will be summoned most probably over all other DPSers because of the agro we do over a medium to long term additional to runes and debuffs. I doubt, that more DPS is of sense. Of course it would provide more comfort in the group or solo/molo content to have higher DPS. But for raid enchanters it would more or less make living more difficult. And it wouldnt bring you more group invites. Maybe some numbers i have recorded in the last few weeks to underline that our DPS is not that bad. Highest nuke ever in a burn: Level 100, Mindcleave Rk2, while Improved Twincast active, Glyph of Cataclysm active, intensity of the resolute active, empowered focus active, calculated insanity active: 136.768 Highest nuke outside of burn: 123.284 Highest single critical dot tick: Level 100 Mind Squall Rk3: 79.040 Highest dot tick sequence damage by 3 different dots: 119.662 Highest nuke sequence. triggered by one spell: 296.764 The numbers of my guild chanters arent much different, and they also use self stasis and friendly stasis on themselves during the raid scripts to get lower on the agro list. Instead of getting more direct DPS i would rather prefer something like a DoT that doesnt give back mana to me only, but to my group, or AoE. Or something that makes me become of sense in necro or melee dps group on a raid. Or something that bring benefits to healing spells, like an aura that increases heal values or draws mana from mob to the healer everytime he heals ... What we need is an increase of versatility, not an unidirectional DPS overboost.
Damn, stunned me stupid - I am shocked, 2 of three enchanters in top dps?!%&? Holy cow, I occasionally trick out and sneak onto the top 10 when we have burned through 2 other dragons already out of a set of three in TOV and everyone else has all their burns down. So your guild has a serious shortage of necros, 'zerks, rangers, monks, mages, wizzies and the occasional burning SK with a bard and Shaman in group? Just for grins, have you considered looking at your parse with a bard in your group, perhaps a druid for black wolf... Hint while your numbers look high for DPS, your peak values aren't exotic.
