Enchanter - Charm Pet Damage

Not really, imagine one guild fighting a much larger guild and getting the most DPS in Sky before the raid tool. With the raid tool, the larger guild is almost guaranteed to win due to sheer numbers. Not so without the raid tool like it used to be. That's a total balance issue if you're talking about "being classic".

The tank thats crying about a dps nerf is now talking about agnarr. Who wouldve guessed.

Can you tell me the difference between having the melee buff nerfed and having the distillates available to use?

You’re refferencing the distillates that were removed until appropriate era? Sure, one would be a boost, ones a nerf.

There is no question that TLP servers, especially early, completely revolve around charm pets (and to some extent Clerics). There is simply no way anyone can suggest charm pets aren't extremely OP and be taken even a little bit seriously. Box groups with Enchanter mains are completing and selling Epic MQs right now...in era. That is simply ludicrous.

Having said that, I don't think the answer is to nerf the pets. I have no problem with an Enchanter being best DPS in a group when they are focused on controlling a pet that requires almost constant attention and allows nearly zero AFK time.

The issue is that Enchanters can provide the most DPS available AND control several more dangerous mobs with CC. It should be an either/or thing, not both. It's the combination of charm DPS and elite CC that makes enchanters OP on TLP servers. Simply making any mez spell break charm (so the recently charm-broken pet would then have to be mezed as well) and/or buffing the CC skills of Bards/Necros a bit would help balance the issue fairly well. For example, there is no real reason Bards shouldn't be able to mez level 60 mobs other than wanting to keep Enchanters so powerful.

Except you know... DPS racing wasn’t a part of “classic”, that’s a TLP case. People didn’t DPS race. Also just use AoCs.

Enchanters are OP from Classic - PoP plus Tipt and Vxed because that’s how they were in that era. That’s how they should stay. Look back to any old Tipt guide, they tell you get a Cleric, and Enchanter or don’t bother.

I’d encourage them to look at the Charm break code and see if it is being too lenient to Enchanters. But reducing the levels they can charm or the DPS their pets do was an issue resolved in later expansions when content gets harder. No need to push it to everything and make them even more boring a class to play.

Necro CC does not need any improvement. Screaming terror is arguably too powerful as it is, especially for it being a level 22 spell, and considering the other tools necros have in their arsenal. It's nowhere near as good as enchanter mez of course, and becomes less and less valuable as time goes on (due to the level restriction, and resist rates on mobs, etc) but speaking as a person who has only played necros...necro CC is fine as it is. One could have an opinion that certain undead-only mez spells could be upgraded slightly...but that scenario wouldn't really apply to Agnarr, as it's really only after PoP that the undead-only mez spells start to really suck in places that matter.

Your opinion of "also just use AoC's" is pretty dismissive of the fact that open world raid targets respawn much more frequently than the AoC's do. Any guild that wants to most effectively gear up it's characters should be engaging as many open world targets as they are able. Would you rather be in a guild killing CT once a week, or as frequently as every 24-48 hours (plus that once per week instance) depending on the luck with the random respawn time? There's nothing wrong with saying you would only want to kill raid targets in an instance...but there's also nothing wrong with saying that without guild competition, there's less fun to be had.

You're also completely wrong on the topic of whether or not guilds DPS raced before the raid tool existed. They absolutely did. It's true that back in those days the PNP stated something along the line of "first to engage had rights" but first to engage was commonly not always clear...and that's assuming that both guilds played by the PNP. Many guilds threw that out of the window when going up against other guilds for competitive/history reasons.

Of course all this leads to groups being thoroughly addicted to and dependent on having an Enchanter to the point where many will break up if a replacement can't be found. You can almost hear the groan over the internet when somebody joins a group and finds out there's no Enchanter.

Bards are a distant second in power and desirability. Necro's can exceed the DPS of a chanter in zones with suitable undead mobs, but still benefit greatly from having and enchanter in grp for tash and help with recharms + they can't probide haste or passive mana regen buffs to group members and their CC ability is a lot worse.

The way xp is on Coirnav (and Phinny when it was in the first few expacs) groups rely on the massive dps of charmed pets as well as the CC and mana regen provided by an Enchanter to be able to survive in deep dungeon camps and have the DPS to keep xp flowing.

If I ever do another TLP from the start, it'll definitely be enchanter/cleric. Period.

Wiser words have never been spoken.

This is the only TLP server I've played and I went SK/Sham/Mage/Bard, and it was a huge mistake.

If DBG ever suckers me into another TLP server I won't make the same mistake again.

People love to bring up risk of charming.

You know what's risky? Playing a tank with crappy gear. Bringing a low dps group of pugs together trying to grind a tough area.

But give me 2 enchanters in any group and any camp? Well, if i was invited to that group its a sure win. Id feel it was a risk joining the group one camp over with no enchanter.

Obviously have have never grouped with a bad enchanter or healer.

Era-correct in the as-it-was sense can be left for P99's purist approach. If you want that, play there.

Era-appropriate to make progression challenging and fun for each era is a totally different thing. A thing that either requires Pre-PoP DPS turned way down among other changes, or pretty much every level 40+ zone in the game revamped harder. Now in some cases (i.e., Lower Guk) you might accomplish this with an insanely higher respawn rate rather than mob-by-mob adjusting.

Tuning down pre-PoP DPS only impacts progression, the other is more work and impacts live (though arguably it wouldn't matter much there).

Era-appropriate to be fun and challenging absolutely allows for otherwise "too early" changes, adjustments and fixes. This includes future revamps and/or "restorations". Fix the gaps, omissions, sadistic design that doesn't compel players to play and outright mistakes. Doesn't matter if it took 20 years to fix an original era mistake... move the game forward. Progression.

Yeah the fact that they stack doesn't help either, put 2 or 3 chanters in a group and it just gets even better, meanwhile other groups are screaming for an enchanter and can't find one.

Nerf away geniuses that is the path to happiness

If you want to bring charm down a notch add a very small % slow debuff onto the charm spell effects. That would mitigate haste buffs which is really what pushes charm into insanely OP territory. This would make playing enchanter kind of boring though since handling a fully hasted charm break is a big part of the fun and risk, especially when solo or in a small group.

Or leave charm as is and change some other spells like:
-Add a 5 second recast timer to the level 2 Mez and Enthrall so they're the same as Entrance/Dazzle
-Increase mez cast time to 3.0 or 3.5 seconds
-Make the PBAE stuns share a refresh timer (if that's not possible then up their individual refresh timers to 20 seconds)
-Increase all the charm spells recast to at least 30 seconds
-Decrease the dictate line of charm spells refresh down to 2 minutes

Always some tank, crying for nerfs of other characters. This is how it all started years ago, getting devs to jump on your bandwagon crying for more nerfs to other people when you probably are no better then a grouped tank.

Show us some of your parses, and what gear you have and maybe we can suggest Googling it and making friends first, before crying for more nerfs... FFS

You know the tanks get this aa too right. It is a dps nerf for tanks, roughly the same % that it was for every other class.

I am in favor of the nerf, but saying that tanks don't get an opinion because they are tanks is just stupid. They were affected just as much as anyone else.

If they want to dps better just don't go defensive. That'll outpace the 14% nerf. Or attack from the back.

Right, because they weren't doing that already.

Some of the suggestions in this thread are truly ridiculous. If players are truly giving up 14% of their dps because they suck and can't play, that's a separate issue from this nerf. I don't think most of us have enough room for improvement in our play to compensate for this.