Lol wow. DW was the default tanking stance because of agro (not DPS) and the fact that Warriors were fierce enough to mitigate just fine without a shield. Shield usage was forced due to overtuned content, lack of Warrior class defensive developments and broken AA's that make it do more DPS than DW/2H. If DW and 2H do less DPS than S+B in any situation then they aren't fulfilling their purpose. If Warriors need a shield to tank trash mobs then Warriors aren't fulfilling our purpose.
Dre. hit the nail on the head. Battleblade, when I was raiding cutting edge content from DoDh through TSS and into SoF, we didn't dual wield tank raid bosses for the measly 30% more damage it provided. We didn't use shields because a) shield block for warriors had not been implemented and b) our aggro discs/tools were still in their infancy. Aggro discs at the time were cute fixes to give us some sort of early snap aggro, but didn't stack up in a meaningful way over time compared to swing and proc hate. Back then, using a shield really provided you with one thing: armor class not subject to the soft caps. The draw back at the time wasn't bottle-necked damage output, it was inability to tank an encounter from start to finish with a shield without hamstringing a guild's damage output. If you're honest with yourself, you'll admit that. Shield use was something most warriors used for that period of time following your disc dropping - and many warriors didn't bother using at all. The first three and a quarter minutes of the fight were protected under discipline (with little risk of biting the dust in appropriate gear and competent healers) with a goal of establishing enough of an aggro lead that you weren't going to lose it in the moments following. The maturation of our aggro discs, SHIELD BLOCK (biggest factor), and augmenting aa's to boost damage output and passive hate generation when using a shield ... those are what have led to current tanking mechanics. Once we no longer needed that offweapon to hold aggro and once shield block was given an in-your-face level of survivability bonus - everything else was obsolete. The sucker punch to the nose for other weapons was ultimately the stagnation (relative to shield use) of damage output. To be honest, I honestly feel shield block should have never been implemented for any classes. It didn't really give us an edge, it watered down the edge that we already had ... and here's why: New content will be balanced on all past and immediately upcoming abilities. From expansion to expansion, shield block only increased our relative power vs obsolete content. The new content was created with the new abilities in mind. We weren't more survivable in expansions to come with shield block, the content simply mandated it's use to maintain the same relative level of survivability. The advent of shield block simply meant that future expansion content was going to be that much extra assbeater ... ultimately necessitating it's forever ongoing use. Knights got it ... we got it. Content ramped up. Knights needed discs to remain competitive ... they got those. To compensate for our relative weakness, further innate mitigation aa's and NTTB were given to warriors. Future content will be balanced around this new "edge" that warriors now have ... the writing on the wall is that I fully expect knights to be given some degree of the innate mitigation aa lines now provided to warriors. Balancing the tanking classes was easier when knights didn't have discs and warriors didn't need to use a shield full time. If warriors had never gotten shield block, I'd bet a double-di penny knights would be able to survive current content on a touch-and-go basis without any disciplines. Content would have been balanced (to a lower level of damage output) than it is now. And you know what? The end result would be warriors having that long forgotten "best in game" survivability that you always whine about us no longer having. Did you hear that? The more this class is forced into a knights_without_spell_books mold that you champion so much, the worse off your own class is for it all. And yes, I do miss being warriors being fierce enough to stand up to content without f*#%ing shields.
Dre, of course, couldn't be further from the actual situation. As others have commented - so long as you can survive the engagement players will use their most damaging setup. However, DW and 2H are not for tanking. S&B is for tanking. Shields AC WAS subject to the softcap and had been for quite awhile. Warriors DID have Shield Block. We gained at-will and at-range aggro discs long before I raised the Making Shields More Practical For Warriors question and certainly before SOE made them more practical. There had long been Warrior only shields. Devs had already attempted to add shield procs. The list goes on and on and on. Shields had not been ornamental objects held in the hand if you wanted to reduce your output damage for years and years and years. Now obviously some players want to cling to DW 24/7 (they hardly ever mention 2H). With knights telling them vs. easier content they often do more DPS coupled with more survival by tanking (there's that word again, tanking) larger numbers of mobs while using S&B - they change the subject. Trivial enough to tank (should never ever happen) with DW (not 2H - they don't care about 2H) they understand. Trivial enough to tank with S&B in large quantities and getting a better outcome than tanking with a 2H or DWing (should never happen) fewer mobs and they go catatonic. Devs should put EoA only on shields in the future and turn off Infused when we're not using a shield. End their confusion. Oh, and in fairness make sure S&B's DPS performance is dependent on tanking with it. They understand that DW and 2H should do better DPS when used like a DPS class in the melee DPSer role than S&B used in that role. They just lose all focus when it's pointed out right setup for the appropriate role includes S&B performing better than DW or 2H when we tank. We're firemen. Firemen put out fires and wear red suspenders. We're tanks. Tank aggro mobs AND survive getting hit by them AND damage them and use shields when tanking. Shields are for tanking. Warriors should do "Warriorly" DPS in our usual role geared properly to perform that role. We're not a melee DPS class. We seldom DPS mobs with another player tanking them. We should seldom be tricked out like a DPS class. (Even some (few) clever Rangers will use a shield if forced to tank beyond the duration of Weaponshield - they get Afaik shield AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block too. DW is a tanking setup for n.o.b.o.d.y.) Simple stuff.
The answer to all of this is quite simple, the Dev's broke the Warrior class period and they need to repair it Period. We are not near the other tank classes in DPS or tanking ability (out side of some raid bosses). just go to one of the current zones with only a healer merc and see how long it takes you to solo mobs, then watch most any other class and you will be saddened. The dev's need to fix this.
Yay - that makes 3 'firemen/suspenders' references. More bbism catch phrases to play beer games with. Oh man ... Good times ...
To that end, I've created this handy dandy bingo card. Enjoy. Edit: Link doesn't work because the forum censors hidden URLs from your virgin eyes. Click the link & replace the asterisks in the URL with the full word for BS.
Um, we're all tanks. For the most part we tank when we play, especially when grouped. And being tanks who are tanking, we all wear our red suspenders (many liked DWing 24/7, but are reconciled to having S&B being the default tanking setup). (That's 4 "firemen" references. I'd imagine many people get the tank, tanking, tank gear connection. It's made automatically. Shields are for tanking guys. It's engraved on thousands of amygdala. We're not a DPS class. We're a member of the Tank Archetype.) I'm privileged to be in a guild that has a long history of performing very well and contribute as best as I can. God bless the guilds who's Warriors think they are Rangers. Btw guys, cogent arguments the last few posts. Even Naubi was more of a challenge.
Agreed. So if there is only one stance viable for tanking, it becomes whatever-that-stance-is 24x7. Historical: DW 24x7 because agro required it Present: S+B 24x7 because best mitigation, avoidance and DPS. Future: 3 reasonable options depending on difficulty of content
Past: DW 24/7 because we didn't have shield appropriate mainhanders. Present: S&B is intruding on DW's filling a DPS class role DPSing with another player tanking. Future: <11@Elidroth> what I see really for warriors is 1h/shield is for tanking, DW and 2H are dps <11@Elidroth> DW hits faster for smaller amounts and less crits, while 2H hits slower, but harder, with a chance for BIG critical hits <11@Elidroth> but is also less accurate With, as was the case when we DW'd 24/7 and should have been tanking while using S&B, changes to require that future outcome (as developers find time to make possibly complicated changes. Atm we've Warriorly DPS, good aggro, good survival, and get full use of shield AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block. Atm we're viable making any change cosmetic and I'd imagine a low priority. There's fewer cooks and as a result, if we likes eating fish, they've a lot of fish to fry. I'm pretty sure players want as much content as possible. Fixing DW 24/7 only took 10 years. S&B 24/7 has barely gone on for 2... ...and frankly most Warriors don't care - they know they are tanks. They know most of the time we are tanking. They know shields are for tanking). (That's another "fireman" reference btw - it's inescapable. We're tanks and not skirmishers. We know it, other classes know it, and the devs know it).
Darn, 7 hits in one post, only needed 1 more for Bingo two different ways. Cosmetic? Hear that whooshing sound? That is the sound of every other Warrior in Everquest soaring over your head. The DW vs 2H vs S+B debate has always been about functional tradeoffs but you'd rather eliminate choice via nerfs.
There's no tradeoff when you are DPSing and another player is tanking. You are filling a role usually filled by a member of the melee DPS archetype. You might be subject to inadvertently taking melee damage and need some dump aggro and short stop the hurting abilities, but not high sustained defensive capability. The DW, 2H, and S+B question has always been about role. It was about role when we DW'd 24/7 - S&B is for tanking, what's DW doing filling the tanking role? It's about role currently with some players protesting that it's S&B 24/7 with S&B infringing on the role our DPSing with another player tanking weapons should occupy. 2H and DW are for DPSing. The "tradeoffs" argument has never been particularly relevant. Admittedly some DW 24/7 wannabe Rangers would have our S&B damage nerfed to get their way, but most Warriors (IMO) believe if we're to take the risks of getting beaten half to death we should at least do typical DPS for our class in our usual role geared properly to perform it. Our S&B direct melee damage might be less but damage shields, ripos, Furious if we dare use it, etc. should more than make up for that reduction. Geared properly. Y'all argue S&B is not geared properly to get the best results DPSing with another player tanking. Y'all forget that DW or 2H is not geared properly to get the best results when tanking. None of the melee DPS classes whose default setups are DW or 2H are tanks - not a one. If content is trivial enough to "tank" imitating a DPS class, then it should be trivial enough for the heirs of Spartans, Romans, and center battle group dismounted cavalry to churn through it using S&B as fast as they can walk as well Tanks are aggro + survival + DPS + utility. DPS classes (or their imitators) are not. If content is not trivial we use defensive and not offensive discs when using S&B - that's tradeoff enough. More than enough. We're firemen...
Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong again. Rehashing the same bad ideas every hour on the forums to the detriment of your class is outright silly (and comical) Attempting to retcon years of other Warriors' opinions to fit your argument is an entirely different level of offense. Quite frankly, I'd be happy to agree to disagree with you on.... just about any issue. That olive branch lasts until calls for nerfs that remove choice and force us into your personal, narrow and exceedingly unpopular class vision. The frequency that you do this, in outright defiance of the forum rules makes me wonder if moderators even read these threads. It's not. WARRIORS are filling the tanking role.
Right. <11@Elidroth> what I see really for warriors is 1h/shield is for tanking, DW and 2H are dps <11@Elidroth> DW hits faster for smaller amounts and less crits, while 2H hits slower, but harder, with a chance for BIG critical hits <11@Elidroth> but is also less accurate Role. It's what was wrong with DWing 24/7 and now using S&B 24/7. Shields weren't avoided just because of aggro. SS says you are WRONG sir. Knights getting higher ratio 1Hdrs when at the time our skill caps were the same and skills practically were the same says you are wrong sir. Wanting to be right won't make it so. Naubi at least moved on to making the argument SS would make every Warrior 1H a tanking weapon and called that an unfair advantage. Yer still stuck on trying to make what amounts to the "Warriors aren't supposed to use shields or at least not well" argument easily disposed of years and years ago. S/he at least had the excuse of wanting knights to retain the advantages of shield AC not subject to the softcap and Shield Block while Warriors barely benefited from them. With Warriors currently having aggro+survivability+DPS+utility while using S&B other than wanting us to use the right gear to perform it's obviously intended role (something I agree with and you apparently do not), what's your motivation? DW 23/7? No thanks. We're tanks, We almost always tank. As tanks our default setup should be S&B. Make it so. When we imitate a DPS class and DPS with another player tanking its right that we use the obviously intended gear to perform that role. Make it so. When we do at-range DPS we use a bow or throw stones.... If ye wanted to DW (or use a 2Hander) almost all the time ya shoulda rolled a Ranger. Being a melee DPS class they generally are not a tank and S&B is not the appropriate gear to perform their usual role (given their role they don't appear on Steel Visor of Malice you'll notice).
