DPS Checks are costing you money.

It's no use Ratbo, my actions perceived as trolling for justice were not powerful enough, I've run out of alcohol. There's no way I can go on.

The only way forward would be to....

obtain....
betterness.....

<dies>

Well yeah. Some guilds are organized, arrive on time and ready to go, can coordinate and communicate with each other, provide valuable feedback to developers, have no problems wiping repeatedly to learn and adapt, and essentially do not waste valuable developer time.

Coincidentally these guilds are also generally the first ones finishing expansions and don't have a need to complain about raids ten months into the expansion...

Heh and if one cannot find 54 people? Fairly common occurrence in EQ and IIRC the original point about the matter. Like it or not this game, like all of us, is slowly dying and finding good people getting difficult. No need to make it worse.
.
Actually I think the corollary with Grandmaster is fairly correct. We can discuss why if you like but I let it stand and double down.

BTW exactly how much value is our valuable time? How much of that has been wasted by devs half-assing the hell out of this game over the last 18 years now?
Valuable dev time my redneck

Now that's just anger being expressed in a way that later you'll probably feel bad about.

I get your frustration. I've been there. But that anger used in that kind of statement isn't productive.

I think it's bs that people are using this arbitrary bar to hit anyone with. But programming can be tough. The devs put in their time. The real problem I think is general perception of whether or not it's ok to just say some people aren't good enough in a game where not saying that has no actual consequences on anyone.

You can still add in challenge easily, and it would be real challenge that actually challenged these high end guilds. And you could do it while letting other people have fun being able to raid with their 40 people that aren't all raid geared, or whatever they have. Let em do their thing. What are you bothered that they earned raid gear by spending more than twice the time you did? Oh nos. That's really shallow.

And if the events were tuned to allow for optional challenges in the future, then that's fantastic. Good on ya if you do that devs.

Actually, your comparison is pretty good. If you're a beginner chess player, do you think you're going to get into a grandmaster type chess tournament? No, but as you get BETTER you get into better and better tournaments. You don't just pick up chess and expect to be in every tournament going.

There are also many different rules for chess tournaments. Including time limits.

Let’s make more and better analogies, yay!

If the game is designed a certain way like for instance basketball with the intent of 10 players on the floor at once. And you show up to play the other tea with only 3 players. But those players instead carry a football hockey stick and ice skates.

You are no longer playing the game as intended and you can hardly expect that all of a sudden because of your teams special circumstances we are to redefine the rules.

Show up as expected and play the game as intended. If your guild can’t field the required numbers that is a guid problem not a game problem and there is a very specific difference.

Participation trophies aside it’s utterly ridiculous to keep persisting down this path.

Go raid he group zones with your 36 toons to get the Uber loot to drop you’ve got a better shot at that as an actual solution for your imaginary raid force incapable of playing within the predefined event rules

I read this whole thread. I want, no, DEMAND a participation trophy!

Yeah shiftie, but I gots a Sega Genesis.

With the 32X.

This is interesting:


And after you watch that, this is not safe for work, but it says something else that I would like to convey to you.

Yes, I realize I am Abraham Lincoln in this example, but I don't care. I've been doing the right thing. Just a simple reminder of the main point here. If you're above these dps checks, taking them out or not implementing them in the future does *nothing* to change the gameplay for you. It's just as challenging as before. So you're trying to implement something that can only do bad things in the game, by punishing those that are still fielding a raid force of some kind, but are just a bit weaker than you are. Dps is *always* the first thing to go, because if a tank or healer is lost, a dps will usually change mains to fill in the gaps. Seen it a million times...

Picked up the mic again? Either continue where you left, or don't continue at all.

Sir you have been hooked. I sent you a pm, and you responded, and then I responded. I'm not here to make your life terrible. We can continue the discussion there where you won't be worried about saving face vs the monster I have become, and can instead just have a good discussion. If I really put myself into it, I can do horrible things to people such as yourself, and you don't deserve that. You should learn this lesson in an environment that isn't going to leave you scarred by it, and I feel like you'd be scarred if this exact method of showing it to you proceeds. You're great dps, but when it comes to this, take the handout.

Another interesting thing is that other games have somewhat similar issues between good and bad have different ways to go about it, let's see their journey.

Sometimes being pissed off is exactly the right thing to do...

Great video.

Yeah but what you want is the devs to take this into account respectfully.

Sure there are a lot of people who are super elite in high end guilds, and they are very vocal. I don't know what % of the paying population they are, but me being one of them, I want challenges to exist in the game.

At the same time, I've been in the shoes of people like Ratbo, and I know it's no good, and I want a better game for people like that too. People make arguments like "well if you do this then why not just give everything away for free?" but they don't understand how stuck you can become, and how hard it can be to get out of that without losing your integrity and just giving up and joining an easier guild. They don't relate to the struggle that these people are facing because when they raid, it's with people like thrillhouse, or even myself, who parse every event, and would give their left kidney for a way to proc 5 more NET's on an event than they currently proc. I'm not above saying I try very hard to deal a lot of damage in a video game. The amount of effort you can put into something that does not beat all the content, or even most of the newer content, is outrageous. But these guys won't see that.

That's why my main point has been that the focus in terms of challenging things should be things that challenge the people that want that challenge. I don't want the integrity of the game to collapse. I don't want people to see group gear that is basically last expac's raid gear and feel disgusted that what they worked for seemingly means so little. I also don't want exceptional performances not to be rewarded.

Ideally I would want the devs to put something in that was a GREAT challenge for RoI etc, but design it in a way where it doesn't get in the way of other guilds experiencing the content. Maybe Brohg's guild can't do it because it is HARD, but his guild can still experience that whole expansion. Maybe Ratbo's guild only gets halfway through the previous expansion by the end of this one, and the emotes or other mechanics or just plain difficulty of the raid without a hard dps timer stops that guild from getting further for the time being. Or they just don't have enough time in the week because their dps is not the strongest. That's great! That group of people that I would have to assume like each other because they are choosing to stay in a guild where they aren't beating all the content get to stay together and keep having a good time, and they're told "you can try this out, and you've got a shot" vs being told "you do not get to play" as a raiding guild for so much of the content.

Sorry if I misrepresented anyone in that example, I know Brohg is pro dps check, but the point in regard to Brohg is still valid, and important in describing the award as his guild beats the expac but certainly isn't at the top, despite having many skilled players.

If you get to know the people that are having trouble, I doubt you'll love them all, but if you keep getting to know them, I bet you'd find a few that you'd like, and maybe realizing their situation would change your views if you just want difficulty. There should be room for both.

And don't forget that the skill that you have is a part of the reward you get for being a high end raider. It's not just gear. When you quit, if you're proud of anything, you'll be proud of the skill you had and about your choices in game. Not some meaningless graphic and stats.

Thanks Ketruh.

This thread went off the rails.

1) For the 2-3 idiots that apparently do not know anything about this game, no, gear is NOT an issue. Any guild that can even kill a few events will full gear up EVERYONE well before the expansion ends, barring a couple pieces that may be locked behind the raids they can't beat (ALL visibles can be farmed off the very first event, for example, and weapons drop from all the raids).

Also, every single event in EoK is beatable in a guild only in TBM gear. Every single event in TBM was beatable by people only in TDS gear. Rinse, repeat.

And I thought you rage quit more than a year ago Rhodz.

2) All this talk of "they should make things challenging for guilds like RoI while still allowing low end guilds to experience it" is dumb. First, they already do this. Raids are just group missions on steroids. Second, making anything like that would just push the argument to another tier of differentiation. For example, what if they made "hard" modes with different gear rewards? Then people would just be whining that they couldn't beat those.

So the very idea is silly. If they make content, either everyone can beat it or only some can beat it. If only some can beat it the only question becomes how many can or cannot.

I have no problem with the argument that enrage timers are dumb (a better enrage timer mechanism would be X minutes with the boss mob hp not dropping versus a hard timer, but still dumb), but all this other garbage and excuses is pathetic.

I'm glad that you agree on the hard timers.

To be fair though, I don't think that they make content that is challenging for RoI. I know some people were going off saying I was an RoI fan or something, it's probably not truly challenging for any of the top 10 guilds. I think that based on the posts complaining about things being "given away", that people should have another tier, via achievements, because clearly the lack of challenge to them is making them a bit jaded. Time trials, and challenges of toughness on raids (or something else, but those seem easy enough to add in) that lead to some really desirable item would be neat. If it had a cool click that was desirable instead of just more stats I think that would be fantastic. The stuff that had interesting clicks was always great. I like the ideas behind say the RoF rare raid drops.

There definitely should be true prestige behind being great and in a great guild etc. There definitely should be something people see and go "whoah, he's got THAT?" But the prestige shouldn't be based on just getting your foot in the door. What people miss imo is that you get good by trying. If people are only getting negative reinforcement, they'll eventually quit trying. I generally agree that the gear isn't the biggest factor, it's the skill. But the gear is the carrot on that stick, and it does truly help a bit too. People without gear will say that it's almost everything, and people with gear will understate it's value (ever see the guy use weak weapons, but he still has all the heroic stats and all the aa's and all the heroic aa's? it's really easy to understate - but saying that I think skill is the biggest factor generally). I'd rather the low end have plenty of raids to attend, and plenty of times to try, and they meet plenty of people and maybe each one gives them a tip to get better. Some come off badly and the information will be misconstrued and the advice will probably be ignored, but one or two hit the mark, and the guy gets better.


I want to see a way for the players in the lower end that are good to have a way up. I want to see some new blood rise up, and impress me. I know, flame away lol everyone that plays has played for 20 years, but I'd rather leave the door open than leave it closed. When you do see a new guy that gets better it's great, even if they're old new. And when you see them show you something you didn't know, it's the best. Give everyone a chance and let's see how high at least a few of them can go that weren't given quite as much of a chance.

You get good by raiding because you meet more people, there are more interactions, more chances to make an important connection. More people might have eyes on what you are doing. You'll never get that good in the group content, because if you are a noob, you'll be looked over and someone else will be chosen for that group. And if the people that would need that newer, less skilled, less geared, less aa'ed player on a raid don't really have a shot at the raid, how is he going to get there? If you're gonna disagree, make a heroic on a server you have no connections on and let me know how you do in your response lol. Even if you do well, it will probably be due to help from a guy that probably helped you in the end because their guild might have wanted a bit of help. The more of those there are, the better. Even kind people are a bit selfish.

Nope did not rage quit not my style, when I do its more "I give up on this insanity" quit. Although the Phinny deception came closer than anything in 18 years.

Actually our home was flooded last year and we lost everything so have been away off on over the last year.

If your simplistic view was correct across the entire game EQ would not have one foot and a couple of toes in it's own grave at this point. It is not a question of possibility it is a question of playablity, is this game as it stands worth it, results say no but keep doubling down.

See that is kind of hard to explain for you guys isn't it?
If you were right about this stuff EQ would be huge, it is not, much the opposite, so therefore... in fact the only progress EQ has made over these last years is when they have backed off this kind of exclusivity but just ignore that.

The game still running after 18 years disagrees with your assessment. News flash the game has a beta underway for the 19th year. Obviously enough subscribers agree with the current game design.