Claims bug - It's time to do damage control, Daybreak

Screw the defiant gear. Tbh I think DBG should be happy people are doing the QA work for them.

I wonder what percentage of the server's Krono are going to be caught up in the ban/suspension wave.

Please maintain the bans/suspensions. The people who claimed multiple boxes have irrevocably damaged the economy by gaining a HUGE amount of Kronos/Plat. This'll set the standard for exploits moving forward and restore faith of the silent majority. The vast portion of people complaining are those who were abusers.

Which is why they didn't ban anyone for doing the 600 feet mage pet tanking issue.

Your argument doesn't hold water for this, you obviously don't know what's involved to make these claims. It's super obvious when you type /claim that you aren't supposed to claim most of what's in the list, it's all greyed out. These people went out of their way to not only find an obscure way to get around the disabled claims, but once they found it, used it over and over and over again.

It amazes me that people are arguing this is within the game mechanics. Bugs happen, no one is perfect, it's why they have it in the EULA that you don't abuse bugs if you find them. If you do you suffer the consequences.

That's fair enough. I do not admit to know how to do the claim bug, only reading the forums of other complaints.

But... and a big butt...
1. If there is a work-around to this /claim exploit; AND it is achieved without altering data files or otherwise bluffing data values. Then I still think the problem lies with DBG. This is the purpose of "debugging". In an over-simplified example: If I give you 3 doors to pick from and ask you to pick 1 door to win a prize. You need to program not only the options for the 3 doors, but also the inevitable option that a player doesn't pick any door at all... This is basic programming 101. You don't need a degree in computer science to understand this aspect of it.

2. Yes, bugs happen. And with a game as large as Everquest there are bound to be numerous bugs with every new patch. But, you still think that if a person finds an exploit they should be banned? Activision would agree with this also.... So, we can agree-to-disagree, but I think it is ignorant. It's the computer programmers job to close out all exploitable pathways, not the end users responsibility to adhere to the "spirit of the game" when exploits exist in game.

In conclusion, its DBG job to do proper debug-testing, it's there job to fix (in a timely manner) any exploits that arise from their failure to anticipate future scenarios, and finally is also their job to fix (from the back-end) and negative results from failing to do #1 or #2. Whether they need to code a script which can go through all player's inventories, or completely delete the server and give up...I don't care. Like I said, I stopped paying my subscription over a month ago. If you want to keep giving them your money, Good for you.

I think this sums it up. Players are told not to do something and they do anyway, to gain an advantage. Then players copy the exploit in order to keep up.
If your mt is decked out in full intricate defiant then he/she isn't the number one tank on the server but they may qualify for first place idiot.
Anybody caught trying to trying to catch up with that level of stupidity deserves some form of punishment.
Anybody exploiting on long term accounts knew the risks and gambled anyway.

You can't compare punishment consistency with Vulak and Fippy. They were set adrift by SOE and that's why they turned into empty cesspits. Could it be that Daybreak don't want a repeat of that for Phinegal? I certainly hope so!
Could it be that DBG are going to protect the integrity of the TLP experience? Maybe they'll do something about the griefing in open world content?

Even if the reports are true that DBG was notified of this bug/exploit a month ago that still doesn't change the fact that players chose to exploit this bug and share the knowledge with others.

I'm sure DBG is aware of the plans made by players to get this gear back at a later date. I hope they get IP blanket bans if they try that. Then if they have another player in their house, they can explain why their account is banned

Sure you can compare the two, because for many if not most of the players on Phinigel, Fippy and Vulak are where we learned what to expect in terms of what SoE/DBG will do in these situations. I agree that I hope DBG is taking a new direction on Phinigel, but the fact remains that it largely IS a new direction.

Well, we learned that you could get away with just about anything on those servers. Rampant abuse of 3rd party programs was a huge issue. Open world content led to a level of griefing so bad that it drove players from the game.
I think it's fair to say that DBG didn't learn from those servers but they sure learned fast from the Ragefire/Lockjaw experience and now we have the extremely successful Phinegal server.
We've got instancing, we've got Truebox and now we have some form of discipline!

We need more discipline though. Bots on Groundspawns, mem blurring, training entire zones on other guilds. Maybe people would think twice if they knew that there is now an increased risk of losing the accounts and everything that goes with them such as SC purchases/claims/vet rewards.
If 1 guild is exploiting in order to achieve "server firsts" then it's the job of Daybreak to clamp down on it before 3 or 4 other guilds adopt the same tactics in order to "keep up".

Here's an idea, get those heroics out on TLP. Not only will that demolish the PL'ing services and the problems they cause, but Daybreak can make a boatload of cash banning cheaters that keep buying heroics because they never learn!

I have no idea how DBG's internal software-engineering practices are set up. I *do* have a PhD in computer science and actively do research in software assurance, so this post tempted me out of hibernation...

It is! Unfortunately, this example is pretty unrealistic for two reasons:

(1) There are many, MANY more than 3 doors. While most programmers will test no-doors, one-door, two-doors, and all-doors---the "edge cases"---it is generally not feasible to test all possible door combinations, which is a mind-boggling amount in any real software system.

Instead, mature software shops will use a mixture of edge-case testing and randomized oracle testing using tools like Quickcheck. Especially well-staffed companies will use more heavyweight tools that reason about code behavior offline, but total assurance turns out to be mathematically impossible to obtain for most programs (Google undecidability, halting problem, Rice's theorem). Getting anywhere close requires years of work and lots of money. DBG isn't NASA or even Amazon.

(2) To test door combinations, you need to be aware of what doors exist. This is the biggest challenge to software testing that there is: debugging the programmers' understanding of the system or problem to solve. This is not an issue caused by slackers; this is a problem with human beings. The best engineers break down their assumptions before they start work, but even they make a mistake now and then.

If you want to get really mad about something, go and read some of the literature on hacking automobiles. It's terrifying, and comes up (in part) because until recently automotive engineers didn't think about security implications of their designs.

If you want a higher level of assurance, you need to be willing to pay for it. A relatively small community of $10-$15/month subscriptions does not a large QA department buy. Good engineering is about accepting this and doing your best with what you have; sometimes the best you can do involves suspending paying customers.

I am often amazed at the bugs that happen here in EQ, but I'm consistently /more/ amazed at the heroic development effort that keeps what must be an ancient tangle of unused code, patches, bad assumptions, old design, and urgent bugfixes afloat for us to enjoy.

Doesn't mean I'm not annoyed, but it does mean I'm still subscribed and having fun.

I am with Cloud here, client testing is irrelevant, checks had to be done on server side and it is a huge issue here.

I applaud the DBG staff on this. Im also appreciative of the efforts being made to curb this now. Some people say its too late but its better than never. General chat and quite a few people seem to be humbled on the server about this. The calls for removal of items from bazaar are still there but people now have a fear of buying it and it seems to be sitting collecting dust. As of now its carry on and enjoy the game as per norm now. Thank you RadarX and your team.

There's still defiant pieces on the bazaar right now this second. Intricate defiant hammers, and multiple pieces of intricate defiant plate armor...

This. It's more a design issue than a testing issue. Even if the client bug didn't exist, M Q or something similar would be able to accomplish the same result if the client does all the checking.

Give them another day or two and let's see what the ultimate result is. Radarx was very upfront about them not being able to resolve everything this weekend.

It's not a virus outbreak being contained, they had no reason necessarily to identify or start with your "patient 0" if they planned to look at everyone who had claimed something. It really doesn't matter what order they get process them in as long as they get to them all... (For that matter, maybe giving them an extra few days to stress about whether or not they've gotten away with it adds an extra edge to the punishment when the ban hammer finally comes down on Monday or whenever.)

Radarx already said that it would not all be taken care of this weekend. Holly said that all the items will be removed in a patch this week.

DBG planned this, they knew about it months ago did nothing. Made tons of money, then came in to look like the hero's banned/suspending people AFTER they lined their pockets. This exploit along with many others were told to DBG. The only way to do the current claim exploit was to buy items from DBG, they knew this was going to happen. Dollar Dollar bills yall

Lol

Back in oh.. August/September we told them about the exploit in ssra, did nothing. Told them about the exploit in VT, did nothing. (still in game) Told them about the arx key exploit, did nothing. (still in game) We told them about the claim exploit/bug, did nothing. So they then released SoL, with those bugs/exploits. That they didn't even have to troubleshoot on their own. If you think they had no idea, you are wrong they knew about all this. Now for some reason they care? Guess they couldn't double dip anymore. (keeping most of the server in the dark, while the game was broken for months, people buying items from DBG to claim exploit and DBG kept taking the money) Someone got butt hurt and went public with it, b/c DBG was ignoring our bug reports for MONTHS. KEEP IT 100% RADARX https://eq.magelo.com/profile/3582197 here is Qelyn with an out of ERA mask from Inny that has been in game since kunark launch. I along with countless others told DBG, they did NOTHING. Many members in AoS have been wearing this loot for MONTHS DBG did nothing AGAIN... smh Here is the link to see the Inny loot DBG never cleaned up https://eq.magelo.com/npc/17872

Being aware of the bug is not the same as leaving it in intentionally to make a profit. It's pretty clear that this dev team simply doesn't have the time and resources to A) release TLP stuff in a timely manner, B) release new live expansions in a timely manner, and C) fix all the bugs and exploits in a timely manner. It's a small team now that's clearly overwhelmed by the scope of everything they are trying to do--the last two live expansions have shown that on top of the repeated failures to address TLP stuff. Obviously most of the things you listed above have no financial implications for DBG.

I am pretty vehemently anti-DBG overall but I'd chalk this one up to foolishly biting off more than they can chew rather than a nefarious profit-increasing scheme. And even the biting off more than they can chew is probably in part out of an earnest desire to give EQ players as much of what we want as they are able.