Charm is too strong

In record #'s too. Even extending to some of those open world batphone guild's main declaration spreadsheets at that, and where I'm seeing some enchanters lead in what amounts to a roughly 1/6 ratio out of almost 200 people. To each their own though on that I guess lol.

CharmQuest 2020 baby

1. If that was true than Motm would be removed as people discovered you could pet wall raids down.
2. The ability to mass box would be in effect and no truebox would exist
3. The ability to dupe would still be in place from RF / LJ days
4. Quest experience for noobies would still work
5. Plus a million and one other items deem to be inbalanced.
6. Oh the ability to PL in a certain zone at 60 to stop mobs inches away but they can't summon or hit you would still be in effect. The record on that was 40 to 60 in just shy of 2 hours.

I'd agree with the previous point about only fixing stuff that is griefing or an exploit.... (or if it is fundamentally broken and therefore could be classed as an exploit). Your list highlights some. I personally do not think we are there yet.. but I am happy to be proven wrong with facts.

My main has been a bard since very early in 2000 as soon as I found out that erudite paladin was the worst race/class combination in the game but think what you will.

Charm is charm and the only difference between a bard charming a mob and an enchanter charming that same mob is that bard charm doesn't last as long and can be cast while the bard is running

• LOL. What absolute nonsense. Where is the representative parse over an extended period of time showing this?
• Cherry picking a few attacks and arbitrarily comparing it to another class is nonsense. If you can't understand why, then it's your issue. Why not compare an ice comet crit on a wiz to a pet who just missed. SOoooooo the wiz has infinite more damage vs charmed pet? nonsense
• Also, quad is not constant as you have implied. It's actually quite uncommon. Prove me wrong.

Sure Motm was put in place due to small groups or small teams of mages being able to kill stuff way beyond their limit. Charm in a similar fashion is able to accomplish more than a group with a duo or trio team at time.

It's not apples to apples but the idea is the same, acting like their is some magic metric before something is too powerful isn't going to happen. If DPG thinks it's too powerful it'll get adjusted from allowing them to read posts by those advocating that.

If it's just perfect nothing will happen so no worries.

Nonsense. The majority of the ENC do not level up by charming reds.

Let's see a fair parse over a sustained period of time or it's BS.... cherry picking a 1 min fight every 4 hrs doesn't count.

I was referring to grp exp. Prove me wrong either way. I can't wait....
(I also wonder if it's 2 to 5 times.... )

That parse was a cherry picked fight. I posted a short list of requirements on around page 12 for a fair parse, which should be over a sustained period of time and not 2-4 mins.

I already indirectly answered your 2nd question. I personally don't believe charm is griefing or an exploit so it should stay as it is. It wouldn't bother me personally if it was tuned down, but let's be smart about this and present some facts for proper context.

• I think you got me mixed up. I have boxed bards but not mained one before.
• I'd love to see that parse of 10x faster over a sustained period of time.
• I'd also like to say that in 20 years of on/off game play, while potentially feasible, I have personally never seen that grp you just described in guk. Does it represent an every day part of the meta?

hey now I have charmed dogs in velks for hours, keeping the same pet...

Did it with a chanter and its certainly easier.

The fact is, you can look through all kinds of content and pick where certain classes will be the best choice for something. At least other classes actually get direct gains in power, which makes their lives better regardless of where they are. Enchanters can be great, when you are in current content where charm has not already been heavily nerfed. Of course, if you want to go back and farm lower level content, an Enchanter doesn't even hold a candle to classes that receive direct gains in power. Sure, go ahead as a level 70 Enchanter and charm a hill giant and try not to laugh while that level 70 Wizard kills every mob alive other than the one that the Enchanter is killing. The charming Enchanter is only ever as powerful as the pet the Enchanter can charm and, indirectly, as strong as the support the Enchanter receives from a group.

Moreover, of course a specifically-built charm group will kill faster than a non-charm group. Then again, the AE group in Velious and Luclin will generate even faster exp gains than will the charm group. The LDoN group relying exclusively on charm can even fail if it pulls an instance where the charm pets are deep in or non existent.

I still don't see the problem here or, rather, I don't see why it is being aimed exclusively at Enchanters. Warriors can tank way better than any other class on the hardest hitting mobs - we enjoy that exclusivity over every single class in the game. Clerics have the strongest single target heal in the game, the best rez in the game, and the quickest-casting emergency abilities like Divine Rez and Bestow Divine Aura. Druids and Wizards have the fastest zone-to-zone transport. Wizards have the best AE capabilities. Knights have the strongest snap and area threat in the game. I could go on and on, and the list touches pretty much every single class.

Except Enchanters. Enchanters do one thing far and above every other class - charm (though you also say AE stuns, but AE stuns can't generate experience without a specifically designed group to take advantage of in very specific zones) - and it is dependent on the power of the charmed NPC, the skill and gear of the Enchanter, and the degree of support that the Enchanter's group provides. Every other tool in the Enchanter kit becomes distributed out to other classes as time goes on or, in the case of buffs, is easily provided out of group without even needing to bring the Enchanter along. If the power of Charm is not proportionally strong to the content the Enchanter is fighting in (but again barring AE groups), there is both no reason to bring an Enchanter as part of the group as well as no reasonable ability for the Enchanter to gain experience by him or herself.

And that's literally the point of the story here. Enchanters go from a truly unique class to a watered-down version of what they originally were. And, for all those "problems" I mentioned earlier, none of them were solved by nerfing. Knights were given defensive discs to bring them closer into tanking parity. Shaman and Druids were given rezzes, stronger heals, and more unique methods of healing. Transportation as a benefit was more or less given to everyone through PoK stones, Guild Lobbies, and more streamlined progression through an expansion. Mages were given very strong beam AE spells. Warriors were given stronger snap threat and AE discs like Cyclone Blade. Hell, most classes eventually are given AA tools to pull or dump emergency threat.

The power of Charm needs to be balanced against the content of that era, period. It is the one and only relevant offensive capability an Enchanter brings to a group. There aren't enough crowds to control on TLP servers for the Enchanter to be brought along specifically for that reason. Mana regeneration and haste potions can easily replace Enchanter buffs until such point that their own spell duration becomes a liability instead of a boon. Enchanters will not be brought to a group solely for direct damage, damage over time, or even for their slows. They cannot heal, cannot port, cannot succor or evacuate in an emergency. They do not have their auras or aDPS abilities until far later.

I personally do not find Enchanter charm DPS to be extravagant versus the ease other classes have in generating their own DPS. However, I do find that other classes are entirely too weak versus the era content that they are facing. Rogues need the strongest of buffs. Paladins absolutely deserve Cease and Desist in Classic, and both SKs and Paladins should receive small defensive boosts by either releasing their defensive abilities in sooner or else improving their innate mitigation. Necros will hopefully be fixed for the first time in years. To be honest, you could probably find something in every class to buff and, while I'm griping, Warriors could use a small boost to their DPS itemization in Luclin. Absolutely zero of these issues, however, mean that Charm should be nerfed.

working as intended.

You should run for office bro - nice spin.

I never said you couldn't hold a camp w/o charm pets - I said that you would have trouble if I (or others) rolled in there with my DRU/ENC/CLR box team w/ 2x L53 charm pets @ max haste. Unless your group is 6 epic monks, you don't stand a chance. Ok, ok - maybe once an hour you can snipe a mob if you have a SK.

100% lie.

Kennels repops way too fast and other than charm pets, CC is a must. You're likely not holding kennels without at least 2 charm pets or serious OOG DPS. With 1 charm pet and a decently balanced group otherwise, you might be able to kill just that camp. But as I mentioned to Sikkun above, when my 3-box double-charming rolls in, you're pretty much screwed.

Please nerf charm. Make every other class more relevant with one tiny little tweak.

This may have already been suggested in teh 32 pgs i didnt pour over. BUT i think a reasonable solution to temporize things would be to have the charmed mob generate minimum hate while in group. kthxbai

What a topic. 21 old years game and always the same discussion

I’ll take my chances on the 22 picks of chardok of being able to hold kennels without charm pets.

Oh yeah, already did it. But love how dedicated you are to thinking you can’t do it.

They could turn charm into a self only nuke and rogues would still be LFG while your group adds a second enchanter.

You just answered your own question in that statement. All those classes you mentioned are highly specialized at doing specific roles. Enchanters are already top tier support champions that specialize in buffing and CC. The clarity line alone is arguably the strongest buff in the game till at least PoP if not later. They don't need the ability to do the most damage in the game on top of that.

Charmed pet damage needs to be reduced by 70%. This would put their power more in line with summoned pets. Rogues and rangers need to be buffed in classic as well. These are just obvious balance changes that should occur.