Changes with the February Update: Developer Updates

This thread is *about* the class changes and the AA Granting. What *specific* issues are you not seeing responses to? There's 86 pages, so you might want to be a little less vague?

We talked about these sorts of solutions early in the process. Our thought was that it fundamentally changes many things in EQ. No more blackburrow trains. How about all the raids that are potentially impacted? This would be much huger than the changes we are talking about.

I already posted earlier that I feel this is a wasted opportunity to provide content that will do a similar grant of AA points, not of the actual AA values. The claim here was that there isn't enough time in the day to create content, you'd rather make new expansions and other such things.

I'm all for killing the AA grind. However the news of a massive AA grant while giving a big middle finger to long time players has already caused several in my guild to quit and more to consider quitting. The SK changes have some SKs main changing now (more loot for me!)

The biggest issues people have with this is it feels like a big middle finger, especially to those of us who have played and payed for over a decade. There's quite a few folks in my guild that are in the mid range of AAs, around 5k to 8k. They've long since finished UF AAs, or at the very least all the ones they want. So here's what they're seeing from these changes: They're nerfing several methods of fast(-er/-ish) AA gain, and giving out a ton of AAs that I'll see very few of, and gain no actual benefit from either of these changes.

Now, I'm not crying about the fact that new players got AA for free. You're doing this to help a "psychological" problem with the game. Your long time players have a "psychological" problem with people receiving a ton of help while they don't. If I received the ~6k UF AA grant to spend now, I would finally be maxed AA for the first time in a long time. Instead, you're removing swarming (I'm not too against that, I didn't use it much anyways), potentially nerfing my epic which is one of my biggest utilities in game well outside of just swarming, not acknowledging the fact that we're underpowered as is due to the fact we couldn't swarm, and stonewalling any requests for alternatives to an AA grant. You've made up your mind, even though you've altered it some from feedback, that you're doing an AA grant. It's infuriating to folks who want to have a way to earn their way in to getting that same level of character boost that you're straight up dismissing a lot of the good ideas I've seen in these threads. Ideas like:

1. Add content that provides large/fast AA grants
2. Reduce cooldown on Franklin Teek quests, increase experience rewards
3. Tie AAs to achievements
4. Improve the tutorial for new players, perhaps fitting in large sections of AAs there
5. Reduce the AA cost overall, return to existing players the AA points of the reduced cost of AAs
6. Mostly, just allow players to spend these AAs so they can pick and choose what they want.
7. Give those in the midrange who spent the epic battle time just to be functional by earning most of the AAs you're granting (the problem you're trying to solve) the opportunity to for once get ahead of the curve they've been behind.

I'm sure the list can go on, but those are just what I remember from the top of my head. There's been tons of great ideas, stop just stonewalling them because they aren't your perfect vision to solving the issue, or because it might take some extra dev time on top of what you have budgeted, or for whatever internal reason.

There is a psychological problem to new players and the huge learning / experience curve to the game, yes. I'm all for reducing it. There's also a huge psychological problem for those getting nothing but negatives out of this change, and wanting to still increase their character's power feeling that their time spent has been devalued. Not worthless, mind you, because they did get the benefit of using those AAs since they had them, but definitely largely devalued, since now the gap they've created to make themselves stand out from other characters has been largely diminished and the uniqueness and power of their character marginalized. If you think nobody will quit because of that, you're wrong.

You can get an *idea* now, by filtering by expansion. Yes, there's then a level restriction, but at least you'll be able to see roughly based on your level + the expansion you filter by.

I think I was very clear. We have seen a lot of responses on the class changes - especially the 'detail'. We have seen responses on the 'detail' of the AA allocation (eg how it might work in terms of numbers at what level)
There has been no response on the overarching issue of whether the decision to go ahead with allocating 'some' AA has already been made regardless of what people say here (several have asked that); there has been no response made to the concerns expressed by many people (myself included) that this is bad for the game in various ways; there has been no response to what is open for negotiation and what is already settled behind the scenes.

"However the news of a massive AA grant while giving a big middle finger to long time players has already caused several in my guild to quit and more to consider quitting."

even though i doubt this is true, i hope it is. if they are willing to quit over something like this before it even happens thats their issue not sony's

1. The poll is a very small part of the data. This comes from a huge number of data sources, the poll just being one (small) one of them.

2. We take player input into account, but design by democracy isn't a good policy. Instead the dev team takes player feedback into consideration. It's a hard balance, and we're trying harder than ever to listen more.

3. No, it didn't. It was a different time, and the game was in a different place. Like I said, this isn't a particularly large part of the decision. Just another part.

4. This is the top news item on the Launchpad. Theoretically almost everyone should be using the LP to get into EQ. It's not perfect, but we are trying to make sure folks know.

5. See above. MotD is an interesting idea, I'll keep it in mind.

A date: Thanks for the offer. My wife might not appreciate it so much though.

Check me on magelo. I typically run 217% haste with Unity and rk II chanter haste, plus 422 hDex. With rk. III chanter haste I hit 1457 dex with BotD equipped. I doubt you are that much ahead of me. If I miss the nukes it does not double my estimate. All I said is I think your 30 to 50 is high.

With BotD I get an attempt off, including maxed Trickshot, every second or so. My accuracy is around 90%, so roughly 50 hits per minute. I get 5 casts or so of the two arrow spells for four arrows each or about 20 extra arrows and maybe 18 extra hits. It might be less, I'm under the impression that the arrow spells miss more than the bow. Adding the spells increases the number of HS's by 40% give or take.

I'm only saying all this because it's easy for folks to throw out numbers when they should be throwing out data that lead to the estimates they believe in.

I'll work backwards on your points.
3. Rangers are only ranged for about 3 mins out of every 20. Rangers will retain the most use of their ability, granted, in a solo setting, on non-summoning, rootable mobs - that's not one but two restrictions. However, at the rate they are talking about it procing, it would be fundamentally stupid to think a ranger will choose to stand around plinking arrows at a dark blue con for *several minutes* (unless the dmg is bumped...and they haven't commented on bumping the dmg for sure that I've seen). If the goal is xp, pulling multiple light blues and meleeing + AEing is going to produce faster, easier experience. In a group or raid setting, Rogues and Berserkers will gain the most from this change, because rangers do not bow over melee outside of Bullseye Disc. If you know a ranger doing so, I'd suggest you tell them they are missing out on a lot of dps. And headshot will not close that gap. It might mend the gap a little, but a headshot is 180k dmg base right now...a 100 ranger is capable doing that much damage in a couple ticks with melee these days...its really not that much. You have to understand that current era mobs and HoT era Tae Ew have a large hp disparity.
Also Elidroth has already commented about agro from Assassinate/Decap/Headshot, its gonna be looked at.

2. Not necessarily. Their base damage is the same ~180k dmg. The difference is ranger and rogue headshot/assassinate were coded eons ago and decap was coded quite differently. Decap is coded as a spell (check Lucy). As such, its modded by different abilities than what headshot is modded by. Ever have a bard click Fierce Eye/Epic in your group while decapitating?

1. What makes you think those camps will be beloved or anywhere near overdemanded after this change? Believe me, rangers are not going to go out of their way to range solo dark blue mobs in hopes of headshot firing for experience, let alone find a humanoid camp for experience. We will go where exp is fastest, just like any other class.

That's good to hear, but I want tangible benefits to my character's power. I don't mind having to do content to get that tangible benefit either, myself. Some may. But a couple illusions or some title isn't going to fix the fact that I've spent hundreds of dollars in SC on exp potions, hours grinding, etc. Illusions and Titles don't increase the power of my character. Especially recent expenditures.

Then why post that these are the changes going live with the next update? Why not ask for input first and then make your announcement? Backwards.

I still don't get the changes to Ranger headshot. It only works on the mob that's targetted as is, it's almost always quicker, easier, and less dangerous for me, as a ranger, to kill mobs basically 1 at a time than it is to spend time rounding up half a zone to hit them with ae damage that will take a month to kill them by itself. I'm not max level, only 85 on my ranger, but after the first nerf to Headshot I found that doing a headshot run on the gnolls in the steppes, I got more xp engaging 1 or 2 mobs at a time and killing them than rounding them all up and trying to pop lesson while trying to keep 50 mobs rooted. I would normally use around 25 mins of my lesson rounding up all the mobs at once and getting them all killed, doing it 1 at a time I would get all the lb con gnolls killed with about 14-15 mins left on lesson. So afaic ranger headshot zone disruption has already been fixed.

If they are on a server with friends they can be helped to 85+ with 3K AA in two weeks time with no more then an hour or more played a day.

If they are truly new and don't know anyone then it doesn't matter what level they play. They will have to make friends be it anywhere from level 1-85 or from 86-100. But to think just because you are level 86 with 5K aa that you suddenly get to play the game is laughable. 86-100 is much harder, time consuming and requires you actually know how to play your class. There are not magic pick up groups for all to share in at those levels unless you are in a guild, have friends or box. Espeically if you have no idea how to use your AA, spells and abilities. PUGs are dead and no amount of heroic toons, AA granting or free to play is going to bring that back unless suddenly 500K people think dated graphics, broken pvp, minimal and poorly tuned current content aa and spells equates to the game for them.

I did exactly that 4 months ago when I quit paying a sub and raiding. I rerolled a monk on a server I never played on with no help or PP. He's 76, with 2900 AA 14 pieces of paragon gear and the rest definite that I picked up along the way. I did this with a junk merc, daily tasks, bought a few UF ta's as I could from vender fodder and tradeskill item stuff I sold. All with about 60-90 minutes played a day of pretty leisurely play as I stopped to work on his epic, grind faction for oow robe and wasted a lot of time on the paragon gear which will be outdated very quickly should I choose to continue to level. Had my sole intent to be just to level and make friends at level 85 and above I am sure I could be level 90 with 2-3K aa but would not be able to take a hit until I geared up better with rot or attune gear for cheap. The mountain has long since gone away but yes you still have to put time in. That will never change.

Good, so the Dev's have responded to detailed commentary.

It's pretty clear to me that unless someone posts hard evidence that it's bad for the game, the development team have evidence that it's going to be good for the game. Shouting 'oh no it won't' isn't going to help. So I'm sure if you post your evidence and data then they'll review it. 300 people posting 'I'm quitting if this goes through' isn't evidence, btw.

The only thing settled behind the scenes, from my reading, is that Sony will take action to prevent mass killing, and you have to prove the changes are hugely detrimental to the class to change the detail (but you admit they're already talking about the detail), and Sony will take action to reduce the time taken for people to 'get up to speed' and their view is that this means handing out AA.

It's clear that's the case. In my view, you just don't like those two truths, so you can't believe they haven't answered the general questions. They don't need to answer them, or, another view, is that this entire thread is your answer. Sony are going to make these changes - if you want material differences, the detail is exactly the whole point.

SK's presented a good, solid argument, and had some changes made. Clerics have presented actual data, from parsing, in-game, and the dev's are reviewing it.

If you want to change opinion, bring data, not hyperbole.

Totally agree.

I earned my 8k+ AAs the hard way and im very happy with the AAs being granted now .... hope this could go live on Feb 12.

This ^

We're venturing into the territory of mob mentality, instant feedback fueling the fire. Unfortunately, the human psyche is infinitely complicated, and part of that includes dissenters being overwhelmingly more vocal than those who are either neutral or accept and/or agree with the changes. That's why this thread continues to grow.

Announcing this in the MOTD ain't a half bad idea either, to whomever suggested it, thumbs up.

With each new expansion, the grind to the top becomes further and further away from noobs. If we level the playing ground a bit, give them at least half a chance to do something beneficial with a new toon, I wholeheartedly believe we will see the health of EQ improve. I'll be the fist to come on the forums and eat crow if in six months the game is dead, but by golly I just don't see that happening. I truly believe this will increase subscriptions and players. Never one to be a starry-eyed optimist or the glass half-full type, I can say with my usual realist attitude and objectivity that I have high hopes for the AA autogrant.

The other nerfs? As a mage I never did the beaming thing. I have too much integrity to exploit the game that way. The other changes I really don't understand, as I don't play those classes, and indeed those who do have given a ton of constructive feedback which the devs have not only listened to but immediately implemented into some of the proposed changes. I don't think you can ask for better than that. Hats off to the devs, we really love ya.

I actually did read the updated post that they weren't increasing the damage and were indeed nerfing the proc rate but when you have a raid, generally you have at least a few rangers, a few rogues and a few zerkers, meaning the chance for an insta kill ability to proc raises significantly. Even if they aren't upping the damage, if anyone of those classes throws a mini burn on it's going to crit 300k+.

I think these abilities should be disabled when you are in raid period. But whatever, dev's gonna do whatever they want anyway.

They can repeat it all they want, but "this change" wasn't even up for discussion at the time. The proposal at the time was to autogrant a few essential AA lines such as CA & CS, not all AAs except the last 4 expansions. Many more people support the former than the latter. Keep in mind that this was also before further boosts to the AA bonus and the introduction of xp from hotzone dailies.

what happened to the Dislike button ?
or hell no button... >???

For all those people who are posting real fixes to SOE's proposed changes, keep in mind this is SOE we are talking about. Their development patterns suggest a quick easy means of creating content. Some of the suggestions I've seen in this thread require more resources than they're willing to put into the game.