Casters and Priest still using old 96-100 over 101-105 spells

I haven't seen this before, but several casters and priests I know are using the previous tier spells(Rk III 96-100) over the newer ones (group Rk I 101-105) since they are getting better results using the old spells due to lack of focus increases on cotf raid gear (tier 1) for the new spells.

Fortunately at some point they will have access to improved ranked spells (which appears really slow) and access to group and raid gear with 105 focus so that its corrected. But where is the fun in getting higher tier spells that are less appealing than what you have been using for 2 expansions previously?

Further, in some cases raiders will be removing last expansions raid gear (true not the top tiered) for group gear so that the new spells are an improvement over spells two expansions ago.

Keep in mind I'm a ranger and this seems really out of wack for primary casters and priests. New items or spells should be a benefit to players, or the scaling is messed up. If current group gear is better than last expansions raid gear, welcome to World of Warcraft group gear mudflation.

Ruven

Having raid gear on my casters I decided to keep using the old spells till I can test them out and get the new AA.

This time a huge reason for this Ruven is the ratio of guilds who even have CoF Raid Tier 2 armor (if you have that you're going to see better results with the new spells than old generally) but if you have CoF Raid Tier 1, you're seeing some of the discrepancies showing up here.

Also, raid clerics should be using some old spells anyway in their lineup (so it's not so much a choice of old versus new since like necros now, we're using a mix for maximum heals) and it's only a matter of which order to cast them in.

Finally I know some are waiting until they get past rank 1 spells (since for some DPS classes rank 1 of new = rank 3 of old but with a higher mana cost). I haven't done that comparison myself here to know how the priest spells stack up.

Front loaded FTW!

So with T1 CotF raid gear/focus effects are Rk3 CotF spells still better than Rk1 TDS spells? I thought the design plan was that base Rk1 TDS spells would be better than Rk3 CotF spells + focus effects so we didn't run into the problem of favoring old spells until we get new gear.

The basic guideline is 5% more mana for 5% more damage/heal with equal focus effects if you go from RoF Rk.3 to TDS Rk.1. Once you have inferior focus, especially soft-capped at 100, but even soft-capped at 103, the older spells can pull into the lead.

Or for those melee trying to follow along spells went from 120/20 to 126/21 ratio.

It's vastly more complex but if you can just grasp that concept you will know more than the comedy duo at the SOE Live Q&A Panel talking about front-loaded casters.

The short summary was this (note this doesn't take into account if you have type 3's, etc.):

1) If you have CoF raid tier 2 (or obviously TDS raid tier 2 ... then your raid gear is better for all level 101 spells than any group gear focus from any tier.

2) If you have CoF raid tier 1 gear ... there are differences.
- For all level 101-103 spells, the raid gear is better than all TDS tiers of group gear for every focus.

(a) For level 104 spells:
- - - - The raid gear is better than all TDS tiers of group gear for beneficial range, beneficial duration, beneficial spell haste, detrimental range, detrimental duration
- - - - The raid gear is the same as all TDS tiers of group gear for detrimental mana preservation, beneficial mana preservation and detrimental spell haste.
- - - - The raid gear is inferior to all TDS tiers of group gear for improved healing and all damage focii (improved magic, improved chromatic, improved fire, etc.).

(b) For level 105 spells:
- - - - The raid gear is better than all TDS tiers of group gear for beneficial spell haste.
- - - - The raid gear is the same as all TDS tiers of group gear for beneficial and detrimental duration.
- - - - The raid gear is inferior to all TDS tiers of group gear for beneficial range, beneficial mana preservation, detrimental range, detrimental mana preservation, detrimental spell haste, improved healing and all damage focii (improved magic, improved chromatic, improved fire, etc.)

This looks like a messy disincentive for me to ever want to play a caster.

The AA focus effects for many caster DPS spells is another wrinkle added into the mix. The way the boosts behave with regards to critting is another aspect that brings into question their use with regard to L100 spells. I can't say I understand it all myself, but yeah, it's not straightforward.

Yes, for those of us in T1 CoTF raid gear, there are essentially no nuke or heal upgrades in TDS until we upgrade to next tier of raid armor. Not only are most Rank 1 TDS spells a substantial downgrade, most rank 2 TDS spells are still inferior (level 101 spells, with only 1 level of focus degradation, at Rank 2 tend to generally be minor upgrades, likely some 102 spells may be upgrades also at rank 2).

With T1 CoTF raid gear, the new TDS spells use significantly more mana, and do less damage / heal less, and take longer (or the same time) to cast. Across all 103+ nukes and heals that I've checked, and generally true for most 102 & many 101 spells. Significant triple downgrade for mid-tier raiders to switch to using new 101+ spells.

Need at least T2 CoTF raid gear before the new spells make sense, and then generally also need the rank 2 spell with T2 CoTF raid gear for the 105 spells to be of use. (which are just insanely rare, in last 1,000+ T3 mob kills, including 30 T3 loot named, I've seen 1 glowing briny drop for the group, and 0 greaters dropped.)

As a necro in T1 Raid from CtoF integrating the new spells at 105 will take some time.
I noticed with some of the new expansion gems that they are not as strong as RK 2 Equivalents from ROF due to the focus of the gear. Our guild isnt raiding yet in the new expansion so the question for a caster is: Sacrifice AC and Hits for Damage, or hold out till T1 Raiding Gear drops for wrists.

Until I find a spell to drop (Currently flagged for the Castle and have yet to see a single mob drop a spell, heard dino island is a little better) for T2 or win a bidding war when we start T1, I won't use much of the new stuff except to swap out on stuff that is dated for HoT and VoA.

It isnt the first time that newer is always better. This reminds me a lot of the change from RoF Raid gear vs VoA. As a raiding monk the full set of Raiding Gear from RoF had worse adders than the VoA sets (Things like + to flying kick and kick, attack all that stuff).

good thing caster only have to get their new spells to be at almost-full power on a new expansion, while melee need to grind out an entire set of gear!

we'll surely be giving spell to our alts before everyone get a new weapon.

sarcastic comment aimed toward the genius that said melee had it harder than caster on lvl increase expansions.

Its been like this every Level increase expansion since the inception of focii effects.

Ah but this time the devs assured us that rank 1 spells would be an upgrade with old focus!

And Lucy yanks the football away at the last second.

The formula for calculating focus degradation is:

So going through T1 RoF raid focus:
Casting level 100 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 35-100% damage increase
Casting level 101 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 33-95% damage increase
Casting level 102 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 31-90% damage increase
Casting level 103 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 29-85% damage increase
Casting level 104 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 28-80% damage increase
Casting level 105 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 26-75% damage increase

T3 RoF raid focus:
Casting level 100 dmg spells with T3 RoF focus is equivalent to 45-100% damage increase
Casting level 101 dmg spells with T3 RoF focus is equivalent to 42-95% damage increase
Casting level 102 dmg spells with T3 RoF focus is equivalent to 40-90% damage increase
Casting level 103 dmg spells with T3 RoF focus is equivalent to 38-85% damage increase
Casting level 104 dmg spells with T3 RoF focus is equivalent to 36-80% damage increase
Casting level 105 dmg spells with T3 RoF focus is equivalent to 33-75% damage increase

The roughest focus lost is casting efficiencies- Detrimental Mana Preservation 22@100:
Casting level 100 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 22% mana preservation
Casting level 101 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 20% mana preservation
Casting level 102 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 19% mana preservation
Casting level 103 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 18% mana preservation
Casting level 104 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 17% mana preservation
Casting level 105 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 16% mana preservation

Let's take Spear (for mages this is basically the equivalent of the worst case, highest level, highest mana spell:
Spear of Blistersteel Rk. III MAG/100 1: Decrease Hitpoints by 26967 Mana:4273
Spear of Molten Shieldstone Rk. III MAG/105 1: Decrease Hitpoints by 29731 Mana: 4900

Casting level 100 Spear with T1 RoF Raid Focus: 67.5% avg dmg increase, 3332 mana
Casting level 105 Spear with T1 RoF Raid Focus: 50.5% avg dmg increase, 4116 mana
Effectively making T1 RoF 100 Spear on average 45169dmg for 3332 mana (13.56 dmg per mana)
Effectively making T1 RoF 105 Spear on average 44745dmg for 4116 mana (10.87 dmg per mana)

Casting level 100 Spear with T3 RoF Raid Focus: 72.5% avg dmg increase, 3332 mana
Casting level 105 Spear with T3 RoF Raid Focus: 54.0% avg dmg increase, 4116 mana
Effectively making T3 RoF 100 Spear on average 46518dmg for 3332 mana (13.96 dmg per mana)
Effectively making T3 RoF 105 Spear on average 45785dmg for 4116 mana (11.12 dmg per mana)

Casting level 100 Spear with TDS T3 Group Focus: 61% avg dmg increase, 3516 mana
Casting level 105 Spear with TDS T3 Group Focus: 61% avg dmg increase, 4067 mana
Effectively making TDS T3 Group 100 Spear on average 43416dmg for 3516 mana (12.35 dmg per mana)
Effectively making TDS T3 Group 105 Spear on average 47866dmg for 4067 mana (11.77 dmg per mana)

So.. the 100 Spear will be better damage per mana with the higher level 100 degraded raid focus than with the 105 Tier 3 TDS group focus by 1.5 dmg per mana,

and the 105 Spear with Tier 3 TDS group focus will be higher damage than then level 100 degraded raid focus by by 4.5%.

Tier 3 TDS Group Dmg Focus is up to 105 and is 51-71%

Compare that to degraded Tier 3 RoF, which at 105 is 33-75%

Tier 3 TDS grp averages 61% increase on level 101-105 spells
Tier 3 RoF raid averages 54% increase on level 105 spells (with 4% higher ceiling)
Tier 3 RoF raid averages 58% increase on level 104 spells (with 9% higher ceiling)
Tier 3 RoF raid averages 61% increase on level 103 spells (with 14% higher ceiling)
Tier 3 RoF raid averages 65% increase on level 102 spells (with 19% higher ceiling)
Tier 3 RoF raid averages 68% increase on level 101 spells (with 24% higher ceiling)

To me, that means RoF raid focus is greater or equal to, or too close to care compared to TDS Tier 3 group focus pretty much across the board.

A few examples:

TDS Group Focus (Tier 3)
Detrimental Haste 18% at 105
Beneficial Haste 21% at 105
Detrimental Mana Preservation 17% at 105
Beneficial Spell Duration 26% at 105

RoF Raid Focus (Tier 3) (Degraded to 105)
Detrimental Haste 17% at 105
Beneficial Haste 22% at 105
Detrimental Mana Preservation 16% at 105
Beneficial Spell Duration 26% at 105

Last I checked RoF is 2 expansions ago.

No ROF rank 3 spells are better than rank 1 TDS spells, casters got very few spells in COTF.

Raven, actually yes and no.

Some expansions the rank 1 of new has equaled the rank 3 of old but that's rare. And sometimes you have some errors (or at least I think they're errors) in cost or heal ratio. But we were told at SoE Live that the new spells with old focii are supposed to be more than old spells with old focii and that's definitely NOT the case this time with a lot/most spells.

Barper, your numbers are slightly off because you truncate at the end as well.

Casting level 100 dmg spells with T1 RoF focus is equivalent to 35-100% damage increase. Below you list this as 67.5% average but it's 67% average.

That truncation is a pita but gets done on each part separately and then the total.

Yeah but RK II spells where much more available. Even in beta we got rank II spells by default. Given the drop rate of RK IIs and IIIs. Its a substantial power decrease for most casting classes out of the gate.

I did some limited parse of new spells vs old while the Cleric was in CoiF T1 raid gear.

Note Heal Parse provided by tank is far more useful because it indicates how much actual healing is being done.

The old spells are the clear winner with my spell lineup when using same spell setup. (Simple sub of 101-105 Rk 1 vs 96-100 rk 3)
New spells healed for slightly more for total potential heal but they used more mana and range is affected(more on 103-105 spells)

When you factor in that my heals on tanks heal tank to max approx 65% to 75% of the time using old spells. The extra mana and loss of range make the new rk 1 new spells not worth it. (Also note in my limited testing the new spells crit less often ... Approx 12% to 15% less)