Been sitting back watching this one. The beastlord class is truly a "jack of all trades and master of none". We can sustain, burn and act as a "utility class" at any given moment. Are we OP now? I wouldn't say that. I'd say it's more about what the player behind the keyboard can do. Like everyone else, we weren't given anything new. So why the increase in DPS? The big upgrades for us was the support line from bards/chanter/zerkers/shammy epic.The nature of our attacks/discs/ect benefit greatly from these support classes. My old solo sustained was 21-22k (VoA) and my new solo sustained is 24-25k sustained (RoF). Seems a reasonable "upgrade" to me. Saying that, Monks are in desperate need of a boost. Everyone that plays a "DPS" class should be able to have healthy competition with any other "DPS" class and should feel useful in a group/raid situation. For years upon years the beastlord fell into the stagnant/useless category and some days it just wasn't fun being the bottom of the barrel. So any dev reading this and sitting back in their chair letting out that deep breath while putting your hands over your face rubbing it...please take a look at the monks. While they aren't TERRIBLE, they do really need help keeping up consistently with everyone else.
Monk here, and I have to say it's incredibly disheartening when every other melee class does significantly more damage than us. And yes, I will admit it, it pisses me off that beastlords do more damage than us with all the other utility that they have. Pet + Heals + Utility AND they have more dps than a monk? I mean what the flying monkey fudge is that about? NO I don't want other classes nerfed, I just want to be able to compete in dps. I am a hairs breadth away from rerolling as a real melee dps class like a rogue or zerker. Just my 2 cents. I am sure some raid geared maxed out Mon or Beastlord is going to come in here and tell me how wrong I am etc etc.
It should go something like this. Give or take. Least for melee. warrior = 100% dps rogue/zerker = 120% dps monk = 115% dps ranger/bst = 110% sk/paly/bard = 90% So go ahead and get right on that devs.
As a monk were supposed to have boosts coming but I fear it wont matter because I am sure all other classes have boosts coming aswell. So we are going to be in the same boat as before with monks falling behind in dps even though they offer no utility like the other classes do.
Beastlords can do well in parses by people who play them exceptionally well. They are nowhere near other dps classes such as rangers(a hybrid like beastlords), zerkers, necros and many others. They are middle of the pack and right where they should be. Not even remotely overpowered. This whole thread is a nerf call and should be locked imho. I do not wish to go back to the underfoot days of being a horrible class. The whole reason for beastlord improvement because they sucked worse than mages at being a dps and weren't even worth having on raids(you could a use a bot for se and do raids with zero of them because they sucked at dpsing.) All of the classes that deserve stagnations or nerfs beastlords are not one of them. I have monks in my guilds that competitive consistantly with me on a nightly basis. Excpetional beasts do tend to be monsters I won't argue that. If you are saying monks should be way better than beastlords and become the next necro/ranger/zerker that probably should not happen imho. Beastlords did not get anything new at all. We got minor upgrades from the same old stuff like every other class. And some of our stuff did not get upgrades. The only way a monk consistantly parses worse than a beastlord assuming they are both level 100 is skill and AAs and whether someone is afk or not.
It's not a nerf call, even if it may seem like it. It is a buff request for monks, who have fallen by the wayside recently. Providing very little in the way of utility, monks in general feel our damage should be higher than a beastlord's on a consistent basis. No one called for the beastlord to be worse, we want the monk to be better. Part of it is that the monk is a "parent class" of beastlord, even though I find that to be kind of a concept that was forgotten. The thing that still is true though is that beastlord is a hybrid, and most pure casters or pure melee feel that the flexibility and utility provided by being such a class should be offset by slightly lower damage potential. Much like paladins and shadowknights have a large variety of utilities available to them, but 1v1 on tanking a powerful boss, a warrior should fair slightly better. I talk to a beastlord in skype regularly on raids, he went from a bit behind me or roughly even on raids to well above me in terms of damage when we went from level 95 to 100. He said the improvement is mostly through the new pets. Our gear is comparable for the most part (weapons identical). I lol'd
Hatsee and Stubar explained it pretty well. At the top end, beastlords are parsing extremely well. Monks need a little more help than other DPS classes when new AA and such come out. We're not miles behind where we need to be, but we are definitely behind.
I'd be down with that, if there wasn't such a large defensive discrepancy. If that hierarchy was fully maintained, I would venture to say 40 warriors would be nice on a raid due to extremely high defenses and comparable dps. I'd the warrior where the SK and Paladins are, and put SKs and paladins where warriors are to compensate for the warrior's stronger defensive capabilities (and that's the way it is now, anyway). I'd put wizards and necros in the 120 category, mages in the 115, and enchanters in the 90 as well. Have the damage capability for all priests at 70-80 as well.
Its true monks realy dont have much in the way of utilitys to offer anymore at raids i play a monk raiding T2 RoF well geared and realy cant keep up with the rest of melee or BL seeing them hold 45k to 50k dps along with zerkes and just hoping i can do half that im ready to give up my monk for a more useful class. Even more insault add a monk/beast only one hand blunt weapon (Baton of flame) there gose your H2H bonus, and thats less DPS
Not entirely sure what your point is here. Three items here, almost identical. http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=75932 ---Baton of Flame http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=133278 ---Prophetic Cestus http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=133277 ---Darkspike Weapons aren't the issue for Monks, it's the lack of attention they have been receiving the last couple of expansion. This is a large thread and some very good points have been made. Let's just hope that the devs look at it and fix things. Saying items suck for a class isn't a class issue, it's an item issue and is derailing the thread unnecessarily.
I appreesh all the bro monks standing up for this thread and stating how sorry a state that our class has become these days. I say it again, c'mon bro's fix us! I even liked how our community bro guy made a funny. Good on you Pie man, now go whisper in the ears of your bro's and get us fixed.
I assume you're a beastlord then. BL is a hybrid with a huge amount of versatility. Far better solo, useful buffs and debuffs, healing, and some very VERY nice attributable DPS boosts (Kolos' Fury line). I see no reason why the versatile high-utility classes should ever be able to match a "pure melee" class. I'm with the monks on this one. They should always be ahead of beastlords except in very specific circumstances (eg range dps). This therefore needs to be done via AA rather than weapons, which they share with BL.
The issue, which will go unnoticed by most, is that currently monks have an AA that adds I believe 330 points of damage to every hand to hand attack, as well as the ability to proc a 15% delay reduction. The 1 hand blunt has neither of these benefits, and is therefore a DPS downgrade in the majority of situations from lower tier hand to hand weapons. It was brought up to add 1 hand blunt to this AA, but I felt development time would be better spent elsewhere when it is really only this 1 item that creates the issue. I asked if the item would be changed to h2h during beta when it was stated that it would be monk/BL only for this reason, and someone requested that the monk/BL weapon be the Wyrmscale Fistwraps instead which already was hand to hand. As I understand it, beastlords have some AA (Gelid Claw?) that also only triggers with hand to hand weapons, making the baton of flame non ideal for them as well.
I remember differently... It was around when SoF went live. Wycca parsed all the DPS classes and sent a nice report to the devs which they promptly ignored. Their system doesn't work. Balancing classes out of Excel and not *real world* parsing just doesn't work. Maddoc used to actually parse and worked on a better way to compare classes but that was around my first retirement so I lost touch with devs around then. No idea what is going on now, but what is happening today is proof that nothing changed. Sadly it just took a couple years for everyone else to finally notice.
I agree Ned, and would add I was gone for much of that time, came back and wondered what happened to us. As I understand it, our damage table advantage was removed and given to other classes via AA. Additionally, it seems most classes are being adjusted in a multiplicative way, whereas monks are getting flat damage boosts added to the tail end of calculations. This makes us lackluster in burn situations where other classes are a*b*x and we are stuck at a*b+y.
This is true but stubar has the baton and another 1hb and he picks me apart on parses.. then again, he is like twice the beast I am
i'm not interested in bl being nerfed. bl business is bl business. as a monk, i'd like to be competitive and not feel like i'm a welfare spot in the raid. elidroth hates numbers. i get that. he doesn't like the x class does y dps so z class should do y +/-. he's said as much multiple times. it should be about fun and if the mob dies, he's said. i'm paraphrasing now, but that's reasonably accurate. but it's not fun when the parse is linked. i sit back and stare dejected at the number. i play to win. i compete with myself before anyone else. and when i know that i've done everything right, i've geared right, i've aug'd right, i've burned right, i've played error free within a miniscule margin of error for however many seconds and it earns me a number that is below the other melee and hybrids. significantly below. that's not fun. it's disheartening. and without waxing all emotional and dramatical (lol), it really makes me rethink playing monk, which is something i love to do. i don't need or want to top every parse. but i don't want to know going in that i don't have a shot at being at the top or near it. i don't think that's a strange line of reasoning for anyone playing a pure dps class. the next argument someone always makes, dev or player other than monk, is that i shouldn't be so wrapped up in the parse. that's like saying you shouldn't think about food when you're hungry. the parse is how dps is judged. nobody ever remarks about how nice i am or how awesome my /g jokes are, they only judge me on the parse. nobody will ever say wow, you used impen and forestall and step x times tonight to save me heals. you're such a team player! but if i die to something stupid and don't show up on the parse, people will notice. they will comment. and it's not aww shucks, monk, no worries as long as you had fun. the issue is that monks are the most replaceable class on a raid. +dps sure seems like a reasonable way to remedy this.
I would take this argument a step further, and say monks are the ONLY unnecessary class on the raid, in that we provide no benefit to others and are not the best or even outstanding at any role, except for possibly positioning a mob. No raid would be inconvenienced terribly without a monk present. Enchanter - undisputed king of crowd control, necessary buffs, some caster ADPS Magician - strong dps, rods are beneficial, pets are useful in a pinch Wizard - very strong burst dps Necro - very strong sustained dps, some group benefit through taps/healing Ranger - Good melee dps buffs, decent MGBable ADPS ability, strong kiting ability, somewhat strong dps Beastlord - Strong group ADPS ability, strong burst/sustained DPS, good buffs Bard - bar none best ADPS class in the game, largest pulling toolset, variety of utilities Rogue - very strong burst / sustained DPS from rear arc, strong DPS otherwise, minimal ADPS for melee Berserker - very strong burst DPS on stationary target, strong DPS otherwise, some ADPS for melee Monk - somewhat strong sustained DPS, pulling/positioning utilities Cleric - bar none best healer, necessary buffs Shaman - strong melee ADPS, necessary buffs, decent healer Druid - decent healer, necessary buffs Warrior - best tank vs. raid target Paladin - decent tank, healing, splash, buffs Shadowknight - decent tank, aggro buff for tanks, pulling/positioning utilities
Monks are without question the absolute worst class in Everquest. Our suggestions to fix issues are always met with resistance and my favorite expression ever " Monks are just tuned differently " Our pathetic 20% crit rate can not be addressed since they are ' unwilling to improve crit rates at this time ' Our actual Flying Kick damage ( the ability ) is virtually non-existent despite the fact that we have 2 disciplines ( Ironfist / Heel of Zagali ) directly dedicated to this one ability, and not to mention the hundreds and hundreds of aa's that we get still do not make this ability worth clicking on it every 4 seconds. We get met with " Flying Kick is 5% of your total damage, Rogue's backstab is only 30% " or " Flying kick aa's add 1490 dmg per hit " The fact MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of total damage can be done over a period of a minute, makes that 1490 pretty insignificant. Monks are awful compared to other dps classes, thinking they aren't just makes you wrong.
That's about all that needed to be said in this thread, anyone who argues with it has decent monks (lol, they're still mediocre) and terribad other dps. From a raiding standpoint, there is literally -no- reason to take a monk over ANY other dps class. Pulling is gone from Everquest and SKs have had HA longer than monks have had MM, pretending that's what monks are for is rather silly at this point - give them the DPS they need.
