I don't have all the answers when it comes to class balance, but there is an imbalance in the priests with regard to abilities to perform their role or secondary role. Mask Rk3 is currently 86 m / tick. Which comes to 860 m / min. 1,720 m in the time canni AA replaces 92K mana. Bolstering Growth and Exuberance 21,349 / 5 min. 460K mana for 5 canni over 10 min using the lowest common denominator between canni and BG/E. 10844 mana every ~ 20 seconds (2 sec cast, 18 sec cooldown) from Hoary Agreement Rk3.... 2 casts of the spell canni is already 21,688 m in just 40 seconds and has surpassed the 5 min mana return for BG/E. Over 10 min casting Hoary is 325,320 mana returned. Totaling 785,320 mana in 10 minutes from 2 shaman abilities. 42,698 mana from BG/E over the same 10 min. 8600 mana from mask over the same 10 min. 51,298 mana in 10 minutes from 2 druid abilities, one of which is passive. In order to just bring mana return *in line* with a shaman, it would have to be an additional 7,340 m / tick from somewhere, just to make it equal, not noting all the disparities of the classes below. I'm not even asking for it to be equal, but the argument that druids don't have great mana return because of the utility/dps they do is outlandish. And I didn't even include spiritual channeling. For those arguing that druids are priests who DPS so they don't deserve the ability to regain mana quickly, you clearly haven't seen shaman in the top 5 DPS parses with the necros. As for other ways druids suffer for their *superior dps* and a comparative of the priest abilities (including paladin): HoT: SHM, CLR, PAL Group HoT: SHM, CLR Splash: SHM, CLR, PAL (has a cure component) Regen: SHM, DRU Promised: SHM, CLR, DRU Long Duration Aura: SHM (until death), PAL, CLR 5 min Duration Aura: DRU Oh Snap Group Heal: SHM, CLR, DRU (Pal have 3 second cast time group heal either Wave line or Aurora line, both are 3 seconds and not sure why Aurora is classified as a *Quick Heal* in the drop down. Group Heal: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL Ability to load multiple of a line of group heals: SHM, CLR, PAL Ability to load multiple of the fastest single target heals: SHM, CLR, PAL Group Heal with cure component: CLR Group Rain Heal: SHM Priest Alliance: SHM, CLR, DRU PAL somehow got linked in to the timing but not the design of priest alliances AE AA Heal: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL AA group Heal: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL Oh Snap AA Group Heal: SHM, CLR, DRU Radiant Cure: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL Purify: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL In Combat AA 96% Rez: CLR, PAL In Combat 96% Spell Rez: CLR In Combat 90% Spell Rez: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL Call to Corpse: SHM, DRU Healing Ward: SHM, CLR, DRU Root: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL Snare: DRU Track: DRU Port: DRU Evac: DRU Melee Slow: SHM Undead Melee Slow: CLR, PAL Melee Haste: SHM Spell Haste: CLR DoTs: SHM, DRU Undead DoTs: CLR Critical Affliction: SHM (55%), CLR (33%), DRU (55%) Enhanced Ruin: SHM (min duration 24s DoT, increased dmg by 42s worth), DRU (min duration 18s DoT, increased dmg by 32s worth) Combination DoTs: SHM DD: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL (weak) Fury of Magic: SHM (57%), CLR (57%), PAL (40%), DRU (57%) Destructive Fury: SHM (370%), CLR (370%), PAL (305%), DRU (370%) Double Attack: SHM, CLR, PAL Triple Attack: PAL Current Pet: SHM, CLR (odd mechanic) Charm Pet: SHM (ultra low level, animal restriction), DRU (animal restriction) Fixed Duration Invis: SHM, DRU Fixed Duration ITU: CLR, PAL Forage: SHM, CLR, DRU, PAL I'm sure I missed several things, feel free to point them out. I was attempting to be brief but did a bit of a dive in on the comparison between classes. TLDR: Druids are due for a mana return ability that is in keeping pace with the current content/game design. Druids are due for a re-evaluation of their priest tied abilities. There is no reason to cripple the ability to cast multiple of the same fast casting heals. Druids should have a HoT, a splash, perhaps even a pet, and they should be about equal in power to the shaman abilities. Druids should start seeing combination casts of their debuffs. All the fire based debuffs combined into one spell or even an AA. All the ice based debuffs combined into another spell or AA. Vine debuff line can stay solo or become a third AA. Druids, nay, all classes Auras should last until death.
Or, at least, let me re-cast my aura without having to click it off first. No other buff acts that way. A re-cast should just re-start the timer.
Druids are not zero in this (and other categories you listed), they are under the RNG. Druids have AA Abundant Healing HoT (that stacks) that has at 40% chance on any instant heal spell.
Huh? I was specifically referring to a castable HoT, I want a HoT on X character....or group. Also, Abundant Healing is blocked if you have an inferior AA version if Abundant Healing is already on the target. This I listed under Group Heal AA, they all get one, that's where I put HoP, maybe it should be under snap and then AA Group Heal, PAL left off?
The boring and easy way to address this is to make the new Bolstered Growth just return at lot more mana. It's just a number tweak and takes little effort. The fun way is something like Kizant suggested earlier and make a mechanic that makes healing restore or preserve mana for DoTing/nuking, playing into the hybrid nature of the class. A couple ideas I had that combine interesting mechanics but also shouldn't be impractical to implement. Passive AA: Elemental RejuvenationAfter casting a healing spell, causes the next Winter's WildX cast to return mana equal to 4 times its base cost. The number is obviously made up and flexible. You could also open it up to all nukes and/or have it return a set amount of mana. But the core idea is that cycling heals and (non-fire dot) nukes would return a net positive amount of mana. This gives you an option to reset your mana after a death while still being active, but not optimal, in your role. It creates interesting gameplay choices. "I just cast a heal...should I nuke now to maximize my mana for a long fight, or continue DoTing to maximize DPS?" It leans into the hybrid healing/damage role druids fill, and rewards mixed play. It puts nuking back into play more for Druids, something I think has been ignored for them for awhile. Or if you don't like that one, a slightly different but similar idea: Passive AA: From Life Comes DeathAfter casting a healing spell, receive a 1 counter, 3 tick duration buff that reduces the mana cost of the next detrimental spell cast by 80%. Number is again obviously made up and flexible. But the idea is that healing would provide a mini, detrimental only, Gift of Mana proc every time. If you're doing max dps with no healing, you burn through mana. If you want to sustain a bit better, you rotate heals and DoTs. You could obviously make the effect limited to certain level spells if you're concerned with using low level heals to proc it. This gives you control over how you spend your mana, and again creates choices in maximizing DPS vs sustaining your mana, and rewards a hybrid healing/dps class for playing like a hybrid healing/dps class. Anyway, I doubt anything like this would ever be added, but I had fun imagining myself playing with such options!
An example: I'm grouped with a cleric, so I'm DPSing. How exactly is this going to help? When I'm healing, I'm healing. When I'm nuking, I'm nuking. Sure, there are a few times I'm doing both but we have spells for that (nuke heal's target's target). I rarely use those spells anyway, as it usually is easier to just use two different spells for that. As you can see, I'm not a fan of this idea.
In the situation you're describing, you're probably mostly fire doting and nuking, unless things are dying super slow. Nukes are already efficient, so you toss out a fast heal before the fire DoT to make that efficient as well (if we're using the second idea I offered). But it's worth pointing out my goal here also isn't to create infinite mana doing whatever you want, whenever you want, in every situation. While I understand some classes fall into that category already, I don't consider it good design and don't think it should be replicated. The game desperately needs more interactivity and decision making in it. Like I said, the easiest idea is just boost growth, but I find that super, duper boring. At any rate, what's actually going to happen is nothing at all, so it's all kinda moot. The best druids can do is stop comparing themselves to Shaman, because I have little faith it's getting fixed. Even super easy, totally obviously needs to happen, pure numbers tweaks still don't seem to be on the radar these days.
The idea of casting an unneeded heal just to get mana strikes me as inefficient and annoying. It also reduces dps because of the time to cast the heal (and cooldown time). I do agree that although I almost always want an "easy button", in the interests of the game that might not be best. I'm not sure I agree with this. However, whenever I get super, duper, bored, there's always ways to find a challenge for my group. Try doing tough missions, without the best group makeup. Pulling difficult camps. It's always fun when we "accidentally" get too many mobs and the group has to bring our "A" game to survive. Balancing the "risk vs. reward", the NPCs, and the player classes, is an incredibly complex undertaking and one that I have no insight on how to do. I know some developers are very skilled in crunching numbers and I hope they also have some feedback on how the game is going. Sometimes I wonder about their decisions (i.e. "Do they even play EQ?"), but I know they want the game to succeed, and even with all the downsides I'm addicted to this game .
Only in the short term. In the long term, if it keeps you from going OOM, then it actually increases your DPS, because you don't have to med/go OOC. I actually love this idea, or set of ideas (and I never heal on my druid), because it does appeal to the Druid template of good at healing and at DPS. Has you make strategic decisions about how to approach not just one fight, but a whole raid or play session. But, yes, as Zalamyr said, just making the "growth" spells have non-stupid regen values would be a very easy way to address the issue.
I already throw out group heals that don't really need casting to get synergy going with the shaman in my group. If casting a heal is going to help me keep mana, I'm all for throwing out a random heal now and again. Also, the majority of my play comes in raid format where I am usually doing quite a bit of healing as well as dps'ing. Just because you're in a group setting either healing OR dps'ing doesn't mean others wouldn't benefit from it. Also, in a group setting, tossing out a group heal now and again isn't going to cause you to dps less and throwing out a nuke now and again isn't going to cause you to be less efficient as a healer. But if you're losing mana just healing then I'm not sure what you're doing.
The mana situation got much worse with the new LS spells. While in NoS my mana lasted through a full LotD run, killing 30 mobs, now with the new spells I am already at 1/3 mana after only 8 mobs. LS Horde alone cost 4000 base mana more than the NoS version. On a raid I would probably stick to the NoS spells to not run OOM already by the trash mobs.
I am SO late to the party, but, some people already do that, heals proc GoM. I know druids and shamans who do this on the regular. I'd prefer nukes to farm GoM obvi, but the option is there... and overall on this forum post, I totally agree. I'm a druid main. My gear is on point, my technique is on point. I have a shaman alt. I have no idea what I'm doing. He's in group gear and curbstomps my druid on healing. Bit better on sustained DPS. More ADPS. More utility. "Oh, but shaman DoTs cost a ton of mana too!" Give me Canni and Channeling. Then we'll talk.
It goes without saying that if they aren't going to address the massive mana costs, then they need to address the disparity in the healing aspect. Unlink the druid heals so they can spam older heals, like shaman with reckless and cleric with remedy. I'm not saying their 0.5s heal as that would fall in line with clerics. I'm saying the adrenaline line, but it would need to be hastened to 1s to be in line with the shaman reckless line. Give druids a group HoT. Give druids a splash on an 18s reuse. Give druids/shaman an in combat AA rez, you can make it 90%, if you don't wanna upset clerics. Give clerics a reasonable way to DPS. We cannot keep making the argument that druids don't get better mana return because of their DPS when shaman are standing in the room like You also cannot say that their healing is sub par because they can DPS...
Last year my attitude towards druid being balanced was "if you pretend shamans don't exist, it's pretty fair" regarding our ability to outdps most classes if we worked hard enough. This year, my attitude is "if you pretend shamans, wizards, all melee, actually all classes don't exist, we still kinda suck." And all parses I've seen thus far back it up. That's not even considering what the average druid is doing. I'm fortunate to be in a raid guild, I get ADPS, and I consider myself an end-game player. I'm probably not the best person to illustrate this point. I'm not saying we should be a top DPS and a top healer (even though shamans are, /glare), but to have the potential to output well if played properly would be nice. That's why I've always loved casters and DoT classes, they tend to require more critical thinking and quick decision-making than straight melee, but the output tends to reflect that. Also, this year, our heals are less valuable than ever. The xpac is easy, nobody dies. I routinely run mission groups and forget I'm the healer, I never have to cast a heal. On raids? Why would I heal 1 person when other priests can heal 54? I could run with worse groups, a worse raid, but at that point my heals are too weak to matter. The group would just prefer a shaman who knows how to hit 1 button. I don't feel like a balanced class, or a hybrid, or a priest. I feel like a DPS class, specifically, a bad DPS class. It's also worth noting this year, by generally making an easier xpac, with lots of player DPS buffs without mob HP to compensate, our role as DoT'ters as a whole get less good. With our quick cast time on Sun/Horde, we had a nice middle ground between nukers/melee and classes like the Necro, where we could do OK in single or multitarget scenarios. But every class was either massively buffed this year (re: melee, wizards) or was good enough already they're still fine (re: shaman/mage/necro). To avoid this being entirely whiny, here are some suggestions for the 0 devs reading this: 1) give us any mana return. Make DoTs cost less. Give us a form of Canni or Channeling. 5x the mana return on our Bear. Give us a passive AA to return a % of mana everytime we successfully heal or for every point of healing, call it Forest's Soothing or something. 2) Increase the damage of our nukes substantially They're low-mana, but they're low DPS, and they basically serve as filler when DoTs are on. Bigger nukes might give us a way to develop new rotations to maximise fight time before going OOM. Comparing my collective nuke DPS to my guild's wizards DPS on raids the other day, My nukes were doing 300k DPS for me (ignoring NBW, since it's a DoT) The average of 5 wizards did 3.8 million DPS. Again, I know we have DoTs, I'm getting there- 3) The AA nukes... were fixed in beta! 1/5 the mana cost, and 1/5 the cast time. I'm very thankful y'all implemented that. Of course, they still suck, and the damage-to-mana ratio sucks, but it's a step in the right direction. 4) return Nature's Boiling Wrath to glory The past few years, the Nature's X Wrath line has been one of the biggest spells in game. High damage, high mana, long recast, it's a defining feature of our DPS. And it still is. But now so many others have surpassed it, and other classes have more tools than just their version of this. ORRRR make Sun/Horde DoTs do more damage. They're good, but having 2 "goods" and a "great" in your toolkit isn't enough compared to any other class (more on that shortly). And finally, I urge the 0 devs reading this to 5) decide what role we play. We know we aren't tanks, and we know we aren't melee. That stick does like 20k DPS at the absolute most. Are we ADPS? For nukers, yea, and that's cool. But it's the only reason anybody wants me in group, because I suck at everything following: Are we healers? The tools we lack that others have has been expressed exhaustively in this thread and elsewhere, so I won't divert. Are we nukers? We have nukes, a good selection of them actually! But compare the damage to wizard nukes, mage nukes, even chanters. It's a fraction of the damage. Are we DoTters? We have 4 dots, but Chill is awful DPS (especially compared to similar Necro/Shaman dots that proliferate). So realistically, 3 DoTs. Shamans have 7, Necros 13+. We have the same number of DoTs as SKs, Chanters, Beastlords. Hell, bards have more DoTs than we do! "Oh, you're a combo of the 3". Add up our abilities, they don't equal anywhere near other classes. I know every class has some better and some worse years, but it feels like those handling balance changes: a) listen to a vocal minority, b) don't play the game, and c) don't solicit feedback from the proper sources that do. The people who usually make noise usually don't know what they're talking about. Ask druids what druids need, don't ask melee. We're probably just as biased as they are, but we actually know what we're talking about. Tried not to get on the soapbox, might have failed, but I give everything I have every time I log in. I find it's increasingly not enough. - Alky
At level 107, my druid could root/rot 8 mobs at a time using 40% mana. Those were good times. I wonder what it's like at 120?
I would give you something like treeform where you could root yourself and have some type of harvest ability like wizards, rangers could use something similar
