This is what I have been experiencing as well. I have been leveling a Druid through ToL and now NoS and in comparison to everyone else in the group I consistently have issues keeping mana. Our group has a Magician so I am clicking rods every time they are available, medding while DoTs are ticking or using a mount when able, and cycling through (and skipping) some of the larger DoTs. Even with the ridiculous mana recovery bear it's just not enough. I acquired the augments for specialist evocation, alteration, and conjuration and changed my primary and secondary specializations based on my most mana-hungry spells (and most frequently used spells), and I still come up short unless I med through every-other fight OR simply use one DoT and nuke as apposed to 2-3 and a nuke. The above observations were made while playing in group content, so I'm sure those that are fully raid geared likely find group content a bit less challenging with regard to keeping up with mana. However, group-geared characters participating in group content should not have such difficulty just to ensure they are able to participate in the fight.
Exactly. If it's a problem observed with raid gear and all the bells and whistles, it's going to be much more of an issue in group gear with worse foci, fewer heroics and lower mana pools. Which begs the question what the design intent is these days. Are the dev team still wanting NSW to be primarily a GoM spender with much lesser use outside of procs? Should there be an expectation to perform well with a full tool kit indefinitely with sufficient support, or should there be that point where a resource will eventually run out? If so, after how long? Why should one class be hobbled more after death vs others with means of recovery? Perhaps these are questions, among others, that aren't really considered and we're left with repeat +% scaling to spell and AA lines expansion after expansion instead of solutions.
Not for nothing, but while druids are limited to mana bearing after each death for 21k mana each time (so, four uses to exceed Veturika's, but also mana bear can be used before dying and still be ready after), there's a wholeass other thread going on twelve pages at the moment with feedback awfully proximate to "wouldn't it be nice to have spells worth casting on cle?" Cle power isn't zeroed by dying, can get back to operating pretty well on fumes as you say, but Cle aren't measuring their post-casualty performance against pre-casualty top5 raid dps-while-still-having-heals-to-cast. It's not the same, but the parallel is there in tanking too: one of the legitimate strengths of the warrior class is that warriors can resume tanking with a high degree of resilience after deaths -- but knight tank characters are infinitely more popular among EverQuest players thanks to the power and flexibility they have if they don't die.
While I don't know what a Paladin has these days, I recognise that if there's a realistic high enough chance of death on my SK, that I could hold Thought Leech for immediate substantial post-death resource recovery. Even getting back on one's feet isn't that so painful without it, as long as you can bite your way back and consider other party resources. Then it's treading water to ensure I can DPS enough and ensure there are resources for anything else required. If I die again, then RIP. Repeat deaths are painful - and they should be. First time deaths should be punishing, but not misery, and on any class I should be able to recover enough to resume doing a modicum of my general role. To me the difference is really that apparent that I wouldn't say post-death (shadow) knights are to Warriors as Druids are to the other priests as they are that much more hamstrung. I see it in our alt raids any time things go south. IMO the bear could be better and so could their general rate of consumption. If we are to consider priest DPS potential while still being able to heal with regards to mana economy pre and post death, then we'll have to agree that Shamans truly are in a league of their own there, since we all know how fantastic Cleric damage is! Our potential could be better than it is but that's beyond the scope of this thread. We could have damage be improved without that mattering to Druid mana becoming better.
Marr's Gift, 55k mana 13k endurance, 10 minute reuse heh, yes. The 3* Bites plus Soul Flay procs imbalances those classes more deeply than death recovery, but that's a separate whole thing
I wholeheartedly agree with this part, and it was rather my point back on page1. Comparing the tools of disparate classes out of context with their full abilities isn't a solid direction. Druid mana bear hasn't scaled appropriately with levels. That probably needs fixed. And has nothin' to do with how other classes have different tools.
The whole matter just reminded me of this thread from way back when on The Druid's Grove. 18 years ago and we find history repeating. Even the mention of Necros feeding mana! Nimchip was one of Assent's druids, Kamion was in, I want to say Dark Horizons. Both were good druids in their high end guilds. Fenier was more casual/MC while he was the Druid CC. The mana problem was recognised among them all there.
It seems like this has been an issue on and off over the years, and that's disheartening. I started the game as a Druid, then mained a Shaman for years. I raided as a Druid during TDS and TBM and do not recall ever having so much difficulty. I swapped back to Shaman because of raid needs at the time and of course had even LESS problem because they excel at mana sustainability, regardless. Of course, that is a raid setting, and the issues are much less prevalent because there's a lot going on to help sustain, such as Paragon, Bards, etc. While I agree that classes are different, have varied things they excel at, etc, it is hard to not compare when you have a lot of experience with both classes.
Clerics should get a way to definitively add adps to their group and/or contribute some significant dps while using the reverse healing method/massive reverse ds type spells, master of viral ds... and do super burst undead dps. They should also get a separation of VP/QP so they don't sacrifice their own mana to give it to druids, burning their own ability on a death... All of that said, clerics don't "need" that to get back in the fight or perform their current role efficiently.
From what I was told, they once were separate and that was deemed too good. Thus the shared timer. It happened long into my retirement years. I'd probably find it too good if it were separated again as things currently are, but if our mana costs became too severe, I likely would not. When it comes to what gets deemed too good, the devs have had a line in mind, the problem is that the goal post shifts all too much over time. It's very possible they may believe making mana much better beyond a threshold will be too good for Druids. That belief shouldn't supercede the notion that there is viable room for growth without breaking things. I'm not in the loop anymore, so I can't vouch for that one way or another, but I have always believed that QoL tweaks can significantly improve how a game feels to play without destabilising things between classes or in the scope of the game as a whole. As linked with that ancient thread above, this isn't a new problem. It's recurring. The issue then was costs with DoTs in mind in particular, and it's still a key part of it these days.
THIS! 100% The game is dynamic, though not at a fast rate. But things do change over time, new spells, new AAs, even some added abilities as expansions come and go. At times it seems like some class aspects, traits, abilities, etc may lag behind in keeping up with current iterations of xyx ability or current game demands.
100%, I feel this on my paladin with alliance, for no understandable reason, they decided to not upgrade it this year, although they updated all dps classes and the SK. Paladin alliance has always been a wet rag in comparison to the other knight counterpart and I think by letting one class have it earlier, it's just gonna get gapped farther.... I see this in druids as well, I know I sound like a broken record, but no splash, no HoT, no sustainable quick healing, no way to retain or regain mana quickly, no pet to write home about....certainly not in comparison to other priests... I believe these things get "overlooked" when there isn't a vocal class advocate... or when one who sits on the CRC doesn't understand the class.
Being vocal isn't a guarantee of change, and sometimes things can happen counter to recommendations because there isn't an agreement. I can't speak for now, but I can speak of before. Any changes for Clerics that I worked with the team about took years if they even were implemented at all, some long after I retired. There are a handful of exceptions but they are not the norm. All we as players can do is to continue to relay and liaise feedback. The only thing that will otherwise prompt more immediate action and change is when something is bugged/unintended in a detrimental way, or exploitative. Players understanding and being unhappy with a status quo that is truthfully subpar should be something recognised.
I'd like to address a bit of misconception some of you have about the mana problem druids face. Raid events where everyone is stacked up close together and deaths aren't happening a lot, mana isn't as big an issue, since we are in range of our bards and able to benefit from bst paragons. It's events where casters are kept far back from the melee, deaths are a real possibility, and/or the event is taking a prolonged amount of time. Learning events, working achievements. things going sideways can add a lot of extra time to an event that may normally not take long at all. These are the situations where not having an ability similar to the majority* of casters have to recoup chunks of mana back at a time can and are detrimental to the druid class. I haven't even addressed the group content situation because it is a joke. Having to med, even when you're utilizing a mount, a bard, boobear, and mod rods, every couple of pulls is beyond ridiculous. It's super frustrating to be at 15% mana, telling the group you have to med for a bit. and then watching the shaman in your group hit their canni and be good to go for the next eternity.
I totally agree. I have been playing in the group game with my druid and the mana situation is abysmal. I just hit 120 and had hopes that new gear would help, but any difference is too small to notice. It's especially disheartening because I also have a shaman that does not encounter the same issues when I play him, even though he's still 116. As I am not a raider anymore I am in group T2 gear for NOS, but it's still the same story of being mounted (when available), making sure Mask buff is on (and that you upgrade to Rk 2 right away), having a Clarity buff, using the ridiculous bear for mana, and still having to sit out after two kills because you just can't keep up. Druids have no great way for a "burst" mana gather with the bear being what it is now. That's also not even taking into consideration that the bear takes up a spell slot where most other classes get AA abilities for recoup mana; IF devs are committed for Druids to use the bear rather than increase Mask regen or add something else to Great Wolf AA buff for a more substantial mana boost, then the best way to solve this would be to 1) improve the bear substantially, and 2) make it an AA. I would wager that every Druid playing EQ currently would rather have the bear as an AA.
My Druid is my original, and constant main, since 2000. Nothing happens for me in EQ without the druid. I turned to boxing years ago, since I don't have a good schedule for grouping, and have settled on DRU/SK/MAG in the last two years. Works nicely, between the few tools druids do get, the SK "bites" which regen group mana, and the mage mod rods, I don't often have to take med breaks. It also helps that I rolled buff toons on other accounts, so my group always rolls with ENC and BST mana regen buffs. But yes, absent ENC/BST/SK/MAG/BRD buff availability, it's pretty sad how fast druid mana can disappear.
I boxed sk/dru/bard, and found the same thing, with enc/bst/sk/bard and a mod rod druid does ok. Replaced druid with a necro, 2x dmg with no out of group support that the sk/bard didn't need. I'm ok with necro doing 2x dmg, not so much having to sweat out of group buffs for lackluster performance. Remove the foolish mana imbalance. Sadly we won't have any chance of change until beta, and even if something gets promised in beta it probably won't end up happening because they'll be behind schedule and DPG won't actually pay anyone to do class balance unless everyone is screaming (like with nec/wiz/mage/zerk changes).
