So... Monks.

nobody is getting in anyones way here Nedrom, we are all on the same page. The only attitude is from you randomly stomping into this thread to smack talk. there have been many suggestions by everyone on things they can do to help the monk class come back up into balance. Devs see the parses in real time. they have eyes everywhere, so no need to post random parses here that have no context. and i assure you we all know how to play the monk class or we wouldnt all be here with the same complaints.

Someone's title or guild tag doesn't mean they're an expert at everything. Someone may be able to lead a raid or guild. Leading the community is entirely different.

If there wasn't a need for a good community leader you wouldn't have problems and they would have been fixed year ago.

I've been at this for a very long time and whether I'm on a break or not. The 1% do not and cannot dictate class balance. Only the community can work together for that.

Sorry but your title doesn't scare me and doesn't change the way I think. No matter how many firsts you have. You're not first at everything.

This is what I don't understand. You are comparing yourself to a berzerker, which is clearly a broken class. If they bump you guys anywhere near a zerker, then they have two broken classes that dominate everyone else. What is the point in that?

Where were the rangers, beastlords, rogues, mages etc etc on that parse compared to monks? I am guessing they did "about" the same DPS as you did or possibly even lower in some cases. You can't compare yourself to an utterly broken and OP class and try to justify you need bumps in DPS. Some of the solutions in this thread were utterly laughable, and would make you guys the next zerker "flavor of the month" class.

That said, I do feel monks need a boost. FIRST, they need to address the zerker problem, and bring them down to where they should be or actually want them to be, so they aren't doing 2-3x everyone else's DPS. Then, monks could use some small boosts accordingly, along with a few other DPS classes. You can't really begin to balance DPS classes when you have one that is such an outlier, nobody knows where the bar is supposed to be set. I really have no idea why zerkers have been allowed to dominate for this long without a change, but the longer it's allowed to continue, the more issues it creates.

Current level is 100, according to your linked Magelo signature. I'd say you're out of the loop for most of this discussion, given that we're now 105 and have been for 4 expansions. There's more than just the 1% responding here - it's just the 1% you're arguing with, because the 1% actually know more about the class - crit rates, for instance. There are 2 raiding monks in here, at least, who know the class - Dropfast and Qulas. Regardless of what you think about titles, firsts, guilds, etc., to be in one of these guilds you need to know more than autoattack.

You're entirely right, I shouldn't compare monks vs. a broken class. Unfortunately I'm only able to parse myself and have to rely on others' links for their DPS. Looking at some app reviews, I can see rangers are hitting 330-350k dps (app was around 200k) for different Droga raids. No current parses for any other classes are listed in my forums atm.

However, there are still two comparisons in there -- SKs and shamans -- who absolutely should not be performing above a monk. If the latest 'adjustments' are to be assumed accurate for where shamans are, there is definitely something wrong with where monks are.

Well I guess it has come down to this. Arguing with someone that I could agree with 100% the past 5 expansions. But no, Nedrom, this is not the same situation as it was in the past. The best raid monk in the game IMO is barely breaking top 5. He's getting 7/8 now about 8/9 and 1-7 is not zerkers. When I was in ROI savager and I were always competition back and forth for top 5 with a lot of times us even getting 3/4 spots. But we're both in agreement that monks are bad. Monks are so bad I main changed my long time main, and 7 year raiding monk, for a casual shaman that doesn't have a 2.0 why? Because monks are the worst class to play period. Skill set does not matter. Gear doesn't matter. All competitive monks I know are roughly the same with or without new 2hb. It was a nice boost, but nothing more than still a stick to wave at a ranger let alone a berserker.

The point is, the entire monk community that has the skills you say they need (the you suck press buttons more argument I always have), but we're in such bad shape from years of that mentality we really need a boost.

Sarcogian sucks.

Monks do need a boost on dps. (not utility or tanking, just a little more dps)

TIL I'm a monk.

Monks are not suppose to be a top tier dps class. They are not berserkers, rogues, wizards or necros. I think pretty much everyone can agree that monks could use a small boost to longer running / sustainable dps but that's about it.

I'm curious as to what you would define monks as then?

Then what are monks supposed to be on raids? Pulling is pointless. We can't tank. We have no adps support. We are either DPS or we're not DPS. Critics love to place monks in the same category as bards and enchanters by saying "well you can do all this," we can, in group content. But in raids, what do we have to offer? Masters aura. Watch out, that might be game breaking content from..... Dodh? Por? Yeah, I'm good. Oh but wait, we can mend and FD. Oh that's great I can do those and get out DPS'd by zerkers rogues and apparently shamans now too. "But earthforce and shaded step are op," yeah you're right. Being able to "tank" a road named for 48ish seconds is astounding when I can now no longer use my offensive discs. Great call non-monks. Very inspiring to "play better" good monks know what we have to work with. What we offer, and what is needed of us on raids. Right now, there's no point in having a monk in a raid. Name me one. The content can be beaten without a monk because we offer nothing. Less DPS than the other 7 classes. No support. No tanking attributes. No healing (other than self healing). Oh boy, there's one raid event out of all of eok that says "monks you can succeed," because our crit rate for h2h is higher and gives us a 5k DPS margin. But now more people are becoming immune so that's pointless.

No, we're not. I don't think anyone is saying we should be the top. But 700 vs 1300? We shouldn't be feasibly half of the top.

Right here is one of the main reasons why we're stagnating. Our tanking ability. If we're given equal DPS, which is what a lot of people think we're asking for, we're definitely going to be OP. I have no problem with being a bit behind on DPS given that we can take a lot of hits. I outlast a lot of zerkers on raids simply because I can take a hit and mend, which should equal out our DPS more or less (death for them allows me to catch up). At the moment, zerkers can die multiple times and still outparse a monk.

Like Thrillho said, were not asking to be the top DPS. Were asking for somewhat balance. It's not just Zerkers that are beating us. Rangers, SK's, Shaman, and sometimes even Paladins can beat us no matter how hard we try. When tanks and priests are beating DPS classes, their is a serious fing problem.

What more proof do you need? It's not a matter of playing your class better. That is exactly the point were getting at. I know my class very well but it doesn't matter. Even with the best of the best raid armor, All AA's done, I have every nice clickie that we can have, Aka I'm about as out as out can get and we still can't beat those classes and some others. Between the stagnation of our class and all the nerfs in the past years, monks have become pretty useless. Why invite a monk to a group or raid when you can invite a ranger that does does the same or better DPS, and provides kick butt buffs, and has kick butt ADPS, and can patch heal, and can off tank in a pinch just like the monk, ect., ect. It's not fair or balanced what so ever anymore.

You must not have played in years Nedrom and it shows. Things have changed vastly since those days. Coming in here and just suggesting that everyone doesn't know how to play the class is very ignorant thing to do. If anyone doesn't know how to play the class now it's you or you wouldn't be saying such non sense. Say whatever you want, but we know exactly what were talking about. We don't need to prove anything to you.

I can't be the only person who misses the days when each class had their raid where they shined. Like VoA / RoF. Things were so much better then for everyone. On the longer raids, monks / rouges would shine because our sustained was good. On shorter raids, Zerkers / Wizards / ect. would shine. Each class had their time frame where they would shine and it made things fun. Now it's just a few classes shine all the time, no matter how long the fight is or whatever. The balance was much tighter and their was competition which makes it fun. All that is gone now and it sucks.

I'm not even saying that just monks need love. A bunch of DPS classes need love now and/or Zerkers need nerfed, period. It's one way or the other. I know Beastlords / Necro / Rouges need some love too, maybe even mages. I am all for balance for everyone, not just myself or my class. Things are about as screwed up as they can possibly can get, or so I hope. Even if Zerkers get nerfed, the monk class still needs help / needs to start getting real upgrades instead of this + 25 dps to our swarm pet . It's a joke.

You're telling me nothing I don't already know. This conversation is the same one I've been having with monks throughout norrath since eok beta. You might consider qulas and dropfast the only good monks in this forum, but there's quite a few of us out there. So far only 3 maybe 4 of the monks I talked to and knew of have chimed in, but the difference is, we're all in agreement with the current state of the monk class. The main issue from what I've seen, the input we give to the devs is not equal throughout. One says increase thunderfoot, the next is unlink buttons to create more, then you have just increase 2hb damage, there's a lot of variety out there that has been the same thing since..... Pot with our fists of Wu. That lasted all of about 3 months for group contribution. We got a synergy that isn't anything to call.home about. What would really be a great deal more beneficial is giving us a support ability. I've pitched one to the devs and got backing from others out there in regards to what is available for the spaghetti coding and based on what other classes have. Included the lore, because we know that's what daybreak cares about whenever they deny ideas.

We may have these tanking abilities but at the end of he day it doesn't really matter. Zerkers typically get the main focus from the group healer because it's known they can't get rid of agro. In the course of the event I've seen zerkers die 4 times to my none, or I die 4 times to their none. Survivability is pretty moot in this argument I guess, but since there is also a group factor of this game that's why monks should not be on the same DPS level as zerkers/rogues but still not so far behind we cheer beating a druid.

But if you ask the almighty Nedrom that DPS increase was already not needed.

I would consider it a bit more respectful Nedrom if you started your posts with Back in my day, because your a bit clueless on the current state of things unless your playing some super secret ninja shadow monk somewhere.....to come here and talk of us not knowing our class...yeah i take offense to that....Dropfast Sarcogian and I have had many chats in the past and have had a devs ear too on the current state, dont come here and drop your 10 year hiatus knowledge on us as if you get it, frankly its insulting sir.

In his defense, the forum is so full of idiotic childish crying that it's hard to sift out the legit issues from the hyperbole. It's like asking to find a drop of oil in an ocean of derp-tears.

And this has always been his MO as a poster, when monks complained, he said complainer probably didn't know their class, hasn't put in the time to learn, hasn't supplied useful/valid feedback or parses, and they just generally needed to git gud. So at least he's consistent-ish, though it's a little silly to not play regularly with long mia breaks and still make this argument, especially when a lot of the posters on this one seem to know how to monk.

The other difference between then and now....is this monk rock bottom? Seems like it might be pretty close, though a lot of that isnt so much monks being bad, as it is other classes getting large boosts.

yea I get ya man, but seriously one who aint played in YEARS shouldnt drop the bombs he is trying and so far removed from the game, to say things like he is saying is insulting to those who do know the class. And frankly they got us so rubbed down right now, posting parses is moot frankly,the devs know full well the bucket of crap they have put us in.

Im more worried the devs will take nedroms advice and shove us to the side lines "again." Please dont try to derail this thread nedrom we all know whats up but you dont.

When have you done 700k lmao. <3 Sarc ftw.