We actually needed all those things we did receive too long were we used for 3 minutes out of 10 and then useless at all other times. But that is also why I do see a perfectly good reason for sks and paladins to move in the same direction as we were able to move with good suggestions from the community.
Would rather have improved disks than stances, way to much for them to screw up trying to make stances for knights.
The only bad thing from stances was Elidroth trying to put penalties on them. If there were no penalties and we didn't get all the band-aids before that to try to fix the damage from switching from dual wield to sword and board there would of been no problems with the stance implementation. You guys have never had a switch from a core mechanic as we did so it should not be as bad as ours were and just tell him you would rather have them a little less to not have any penalties on them. I am pretty sure he learned some lessons from what he intended at first to what we have now . And don't forget the flash of anger type of disc it is one of the best tools you could get . And I am pretty sure no warrior would have an issue with them giving you that with a 5 minute reuse it basically makes us take no damage from the front for 6 seconds . It is one of our best disciplines.
I hate to come in here and start something mostly because i think SK need something for raids (rangers are in the same boat), but originally it was many years ago and i think it was rashere that said it was that SK were the DPS Knight not DPS Tank and yes there is a difference. Players down the line changed Knight to Tank and that is why we see this now. Sorry guys and trust me i think SK's do need something for Raids.
Seriously is it even possible that BB find the defensive stance and NTTB something bad for the class ? And reason given is that it's not fitting in the warrior legacy portrait ? WTF lol As Makavien said it this stance allows us to fill the gap nicely when Defensive disc isn't up, for me Defensive Proficiency is the best warrior tool we have been given since a long time ago
So just because it's extra work you think stances are a bad thing? I'm sorry you had an extra button to click, but they been the most beneficial thing to our class since aggro discs were made, or just about. It fills the gap between LS perfectly, which is what we've asked for many years. A problem we never had? We were being outclassed heavily in the group game. For awhile NTTB made us nearly indestructible. After the fix it brought us up to par. Now with proficiencies, it puts us above. Such a terrible thing to have. My groups DO start before mobs get in camp, but I have aggro by the time it gets in camp - snared or unsnared. Unless you have the reaction of a sloth, just about everyone should. Rarely do I ever CC mobs. Only in missions like bayle do I. If there are 5-6 mobs in camp, I just tank them all at once. Even when using a single merc healer. I'll use sham surge and maybe the union HoT, but other than that, i'll just tank. When I tank, i get aggro on all the mobs and pop some beneficial things as needed. You run around in circles, I presume? I rarely, if ever have a problem, with picking up aggro on high kill rate mobs. Ask nicely, and I'll let you watch. Combat self healing. I gave you some links. They aren't godly by any means, but they do heal you. Oh, and did you forget NTTB is a spell mitigation also? In a raid, there is no doubt a person would rather have a pally over an SK. It's just the way it is right now and I'm all for having SKs get something. But don't act like warriors cannot compete on their level. That's just ignorance.
By reading the OP initial post, it really seemed to be questioning the SK role a lot referring to less agro, less healing, and less DPS than the other tanks or other knight. He summarized it with a question as where do the Developers see the SKs as he currently is unhappy with them or confused to their nitch. After reading all the pages in the thread, it kind went to SKs were told DPS was their thing and that they need more raid specific love. With that in mind, I tried to address or mention the DPS part. I have heard for years DPS tank in game and on these boards: right or wrong. The OP may have heard or felt the same thing for some time. Finally bringing it up for discussion to address it. IMO which maybe wrong, I would think a nec/war would do the more DPS than the other two tank classes. For many years, I had always seen SKs do more damage(just a perception thing as I do not parse. Please forgive the blanket statement if wrong). Since the OP left and came back, it seems that he had very similar views and was hoping for clarification. My thoughts, Rykard
Hybrid no longer means half one class half the other and it hasn't meant that in a long time. Hybrid at this stage of eq means an endurance and mana user having access to both spells and discs. Stop clinging to class descriptions from 1999 and the game will make more sense. Sk do and should do more dps than the other 2 tanks it might not be enough to set them apart substantially causing someone to choose the class on that aspect alone in a raid or group scenario but the distinction is there. There are caveats to this but getting caught up in the fine print will ruin any class. Outside of a paladin having access to a 60 second burn mob who has also had an active account for 7 years capable of activating something every 4 hours sk wins unless it is in the group game and said paladin has a penchant for perfectly timing kill shots. I grouped tonight and had success with kill shots and I outpaced a wizard in my group doing ha runs who was doing 10k dps this is hardly evidence that Paladins do more dos than wizards. War are ahead in base melee. Sk pull ahead with spells and this is the trend I have seen for ages and ages. One cannot ignore leech abilities and the addition of more melee rounds with increased sk triple and flurry or improved crit chances. Now improved dot abilities would help dramatically but with the debuff limits on raids then what? Improved soloing and grouping with no impact on raid utility. It would be like having a loaded gun when someone is breaking into your house but that gun is locked in a safe and you lost the key. some suggestions here seem doable others are laughable. Convincing the devs is yet another miracle unlikely to come to fruition. I'd love Sk to get more raid utility. But any utility is a nerf or omission away from being useful. Chanters with no mobs to charm or mez seem rather superfluous on raids ... So more adps and bam chanters are wanted regardless of their singular niche. It was a mistake to give debuffs to buffing classes. They should have gone to classes specifically designed to be selfish. Druid debuffs in the hands of an sk would make way more sense but Druids have had those for so long there is no way they would suffer being outdone. There is room for sk growth in the raid game. When I proposed group aoti in a beta a few expansions back several Paladins went crazy over it stating they didn't or wouldn't want to because they would be expected to use it for others and not have the benefit when they needed it. Fast forward a few years and it is considered a vital reason to have Paladins in the raid. The burden is on sk to stop complaining and find answers via ideas. In the irc chats sk had underwhelming representation and ideas towards this end goal. Bickering and complaining will get you no where. Paladins are not in the position they are in by accident it took a community effort that was organized and the solution revolved around finding what the class wanted most and then coming up with an exuberant amount of ideas to each purpose meanwhile demonstrating to the devs why each idea made sense. Look at the success of the war community recently it was the exact same thing and now they reign supreme again as tanks no longer oppressed by the requirement of world ending mobs to force their superiority shackled 1 singular disc.
100kish. Nothing that can't be tanked with a decent heal team. It's the rest of the events that can be interesting, like 54 adds at once. The actual tank n spank part we mostly have down.
Lanys (on a particularly poor night, our heal team seemed to all have other commitments on the same night): /GU Tanking summary for: Bigstomp --- Total damage: 16159390 --- Avg hit: 24446 --- Swings: 911 --- Defended: 148 (16.2%) --- Hit: 661 (72.6%) --- Missed: 102 (11.2%) --- Accuracy: 86.6% --- Dodged: 9 (1.2%) --- Parried: 108 (12.1%) --- Blocked: 15 (1.6%) --- Riposted: 16 (2%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)
"Captain Tita's Ghost (Raid) - Fixed a bug that was causing the Phasmia Ledalus to do considerably more melee damage than was intended." Max hit Warrior undisced 18749. Knights report their discs not needed. Kinda reminds me of when SOE proposed adjusting some acknowledged to be overtuned GoD events and knights screamed that if they didn't get Defensive it was the end of knights. Looks like Daybreak is committed to preserving the Warrior big mob tanking/knight add and off tanking raid roles at the moment. Now if Warriors could just get some combat self-healing to deal with non-melee sources of damage we'd have a little two-way parity instead of knight perusing the Warrior Class Description parity (they only like our class description when shopping for upgrades to their capabilities.). (Not that weak guilds who can't beat events wouldn't improve given unjustifiable knight improvements. Anything, even DA kiting, works when yer stuck. Now you don't have to.) The raid slots for hybrid tanks who provide abilities within AND outside the Tank Archetype are secure. (As is (for the moment) the position of the more narrowly define parent class who would not have a place except for being unmatched in their ability to survive the most brutal battles. We didn't roll nor will we ever be the third among equal hybrids). So long as events are not one boss mob tank and spank and adds don't hit for 100K the additional versatility of add tanks with non-tanking abilities is an advantage. Knights did not choose 100% tank nor do they do only things universally done by tanks. They need to be able to use these abilities in raids. Shadownights don't need help on raids - they need Daybreak to make good on the versatility SK's accepted in lieu of equal to Warrior fighter characteristics and to create events in which classes can use their greater versatility. In raids the value of their outside of the Tank Archetype abilities decline. That's (not their mitigation or their DPS) what needs to be addressed.
Ideas to improve SK desirability: ATK recourse tap for group like our AC one, maybe not stack with bst feroicty line? reverse shielding disc, make others take damage for you for X time (disc so that we cannot stack with other defensive discs) reduce HT to 6 min reuse (already said no to by dev) un link current and one past spear (like many other classes) reduce recast time on life tap to 8 seconds dire life tap to 14 seconds (not quite double what they are now, can move around recast as needed) make swift dots, while the dot revamp was nice, it is only good for soloing, in groups the mobs die before the dot wears off and we cannot use them on raids. (like shm and nec that do normal damage on raid mobs) spell or AA that blocks next incoming spell up to X damage every 1 minute / 30 seconds? Stances: (I don't like the idea of stances, but might help) 2h would up dps when in 2h mode but reduce mitigation to counter epic normal - just like now for both shield - increase mitigation 10%, reduce 2h damage Just a personal want, combine many of our buffs like they have for other classes! *I add dps stuff because it is where Eli said we should be focusing, and has shot down many of our other requests for raid utility based on our "selfish nature", but it never hurts to try again, and again, and again. I would like to note that even selfish people will help others if it is their best interest!
I'd go farther and say probably our best vs one of our best. I can snap a mob, and there is time for other details to get sorted before I go splat.
Yep, it is one of the specific to Warriors within the Tank Archetype abilities that shouldn't be shared and makes Warriors "unmatched in their ability to survive the most brutal battles." It's not needed by knights if Daybreak fixes bugs that cause Phasmia Ledalus (and other adds/off tanked mobs) to do considerably more melee damage than was intended. Not if their max hit vs. a Warrior undisced is 18749 and knights report that their discs not needed. But if one's goal was to "fix" a guild's dependence on fielding 4+ Warriors during the learning stages of harder hitting events and enjoy the versatility of knights sooner/soak up their sometimes excess numbers since every event doesn't require 11ish tanks reducing the not very good DPS deadwood of tanks in general in favor of fielding 6-8 Weezards (because 6-8 Weezards is not overkill. It's totally different. One full day raiding a week is excessive - it could be reduced!) it would be a great change. Funny how fast 4 Warriors 4 Paladins 3-4 SK's went from "SK's aren't wanted in raids" to "too many Warriors". We won't mention that narrowing the ridiculous DPS gap between tanks and DPS classes, giving Warriors a bit better puts HP's back into the HP bar ability to deal with non-melee sources of damage/participate more in their own survival when they are at low HP's, etc. would also reduce the want Warriors when learning/sit them when mastered "issue". As would more events with adds and fewer Simon Says events benefit tanks in general. Dare I say it? So would staggered content so guilds didn't beat expansion in months spending 6 months+ in farm mode at a stretch - always new content to learn/Warriors dying like flies just around the corner.
Did you ever stop to think this could just possibly be related to your mountains of bs 1999 descriptions, your comments about how nttb and stances suck, along with repeating how adds don't need knight discs (which mean they also don't need war discs)? You keep posting so much garbage that maybe, just maybe, you irritated the rest of the thread posters on here enough to backlash on you(Specifically you, not the warrior class)? Also, just curious, you do realize your 4/4/3 ratio is just for your guild, assuming it is? This is not only not a standard, but if one were truly optimizing a raid roster from scratch, I feel would look much more like 6/6/1. Most of the 3-4 SK's you see on rosters are due to either player skill or the fact we've been in the guild long enough it would be wrong to just kick us out.
My personal experience with recruiting raiding SKs, is that most are just bad, or maybe just average. We use 3, all of which can be put into any tanking role. Would I take another? Probably not, since most dont live up to the expectations. Its a sad fact, but seems to hold true. At least out of the recruit pool that Ive come across.
A bit off topic from this thread but very much relates to it. IMO the game has become broken because of all the crap tanks now have to use in order to tank. Gone are the days of well geared toons or melee filling a hole unless your entirely overgeared many times over compared to the content. I get tanks need to have a purpose and if others can get by it diminishes them but its beyond ridiculous how fast every other class now dies because they dont have 200k hps, 75% or more return on their AC and don't have some tanking ability up at all times that reduces damage or heals them. Its to the point that every non tank class needs 200k in recastable self runes just to get by which to me is severely broken.
I-WANT-IT-NOW--- I mostly agree with you, I think a lot of stuff has just become ridiculously inflated, even more than it already was. That's main reason I wish knights never got a form of true defensive. Which resulted in Wars getting NTTB, even more HP and added shield stance mitigation. All that does is require for mobs to start hitting for 100k, so there is somewhat of a chance for a War to die. Which results in a high probability for everyone else (way more so than in past). Zarzac- the number one Euro guild in game can't even field more than one paladin and went half of last expansion with zero. There is many reasons why the pool of paladins runneth drier than Wars/Sk's, but I'll just say running around with 6 wars, 6 pals and 1 shadow on a guild roster I'd find highly silly if dream teams of guilds were able to be built with all having amazing skill. Cisco- your post on SK's not living up to standards made me laugh, since in my experience that's always been case with most paladins. Which has seemed extra bad because there just isn't a lot of them running around on most servers.
