Let's see. Warriors have a Fade (possibly two if you do ROF), and FD potions. How does snare help you tank a mob? How does faster and longer range aggro help you tank single mobs? If you're tanking, doesn't that imply they are close to you already? Why the need for longer range then? The only advantage is multiple mob situations and if you play a war right, you can lock down a dozen or more mobs with ease (hint, use rage and wade along with any other ae ability we have). Maybe we can't do it as often or as efficiently most of the time, but it can be done. You may die because that's alot of mobs, but atleast they'd all be aggroed. That leaves the SKs with self healing and some debuffs. Yes, that's an advantage in the group game, I'll give you that. However, I know many healers that say there is a noticeable difference in the healing of a knight and war in harder hitting group areas now. Our proficiency really cuts down our damage intake. Coupled with NTTB and the 20k hitters in the group game are only hitting for 10k. We may not be able to heal ourselves, but our damage intake is noticeably less. It's a trade off that leans slightly to knight self heals (more so if you're a pally than an SK). Add tanks in raids? Well, some adds in raids hit for 30k+ (not just in the 1 off like you oh so subtly referred to). Our mitigation again evens out the playing field with those mobs. Trivial raid adds the knights are superior. Use DW in group scenarios. Your dps will increase. You don't have to use a shield all the time, especially with the superior gear you kindly told us about earlier. Well, here's a case of the raven calling the crow black. If I were to use the warrior class description as evidence that DW should be viable for warriors you'd try and shoot it down, or just ignore it completely. Yet you bring up a class description for SKs? The amount of fallacies in your arguments are ever increasing. In all honesty, I can see where the OP is coming from. SKs aren't nearly as sought out after in raids compared to a warrior or pally. Pally's can serve as pseudo clerics for the group, splash the raid, buff, battle rezz, and off tank. Can an SK do any of those things outside of tank? SKs could get some love in the raid game, but that's a slippery slope because you need to make sure it doesn't ruin balance of the group game also. Much like what the original NTTB did. Warriors were dominate in the group game with NTTB's original form, but it wasn't game breaking in the raid game.
Of all the arch types in game, tanks, hybrids, dps, healers, tanks are most likely the most balanced. The reason why it has always been so hard to have every tank completely balanced is because there is rarely ''blatant'' issues going on. Warriors are the most desired tank in raid game. Shadows are the most desired tank in group game. Paladins are easily at a happy medium. Plenty of people, many who obviously greatly disagree with much of your view points, have stated repeatedly SK's deserve more raid utility. I easily understand the disadvantages each class has in comparison to each other. My warrior is at 19,000ish aa, all raid game complete. Paladin 20,000ish aa all raid game complete. SK just maxed aa and most of raid game done. As far as I'm concerned, if devs addressed paladin AE hate, gave SK better raid utility in the form of Tyvls etc., gave Warriors same range on hate discs as spells, I'd be happier with em all than I already am.
It would be interesting to me, in a world of merc tanks to see the group that passes on a Pal or a War as a group tank for an SK. I mean are some of you saying this actually happens in today's game? When I see groups form up they are generally happy to get ANY tank. I do know for a fact that when I started heavy again about a year ago that I was told I couldn't tank PoW for a group because I was a group geared SK. Maybe that's the only time that's ever happened in EQ, and I realize I'm one of the worst played SK's out there, but I just do not in any way understand how SK's have any sort of advantage in the group game outside of those in full raid gear.
Lessee Howl was a pretty darned nice improvement wasn't it? I'll bet it's even better if autoattack doesn't spoil things when you hit the ground, being able to do it multiple times back to back on a pull, ... I was briefly blessed with Velious Snowball and Howl - once you know how sweet it is to actually have pulling tools it's rough to go back to the farm. Those questions were answered waaaaay back in LDoN - players don't wait to debuff mobs until they are actually hitting you. Not sure I can help you if this stuff is baffling. Players don't frequent hard hitting group areas when still gaining exp for levels and experience nor when killing 15 scavengers in a merc-progression task or an HA. We can state that more definitely than "may not be able" unless you count those vendor heal potions as healing the way you count potions as on demand FD. Awww busting my chops because shields, an OBVIOUS piece of gear for use when tanking, were made practical for Warriors. I get it. BTW, NTTB and stances are awful. They're the Mount Ring of tank capability design. Maybe a tour d'force in creativity and implementation but all the elegance fit and finish of a Rube Goldberg contraption. Not something I'd bring up as if it was an asset to put on display. Bbbut Loyalty tokens. Potion, one shot clickie, at will ability - same thing. It's been suggested that it's all about hardest hitting content today - mobs that can't be tanked unless a Warrior is under Defensive. (What happens in Vegas...people still swarm. Besides you don't always want 4 extra mobs 2 of which mezz with that named you are tying to pull. You tell me - if your choice is Easy Street or still get it done but slower and with some fussy moments who you going to call? I'll take the pros from Dover - they've got ALL the tools not just a sword and a shield.) It's 4 Warriors, 4 Pallies, 3 SK's not 11 Warriors and for good reasons.
Zarzac, I think the merc choice thing would be interesting as well. (Though I can just picture a whole group scratching their heads as a merc pal heals someone not at 100% hp instead of aggroing). What I really feel would be more interesting than the merc thing, would be if all Wars, Pals, Sk's were given the option to one time class change between any of the tanks and keep their exact same gear level/aa. I have this strange feeling a bunch of people would be running around claiming they didn't change because of ''loyalty'' to their class and knowing how to play it, even though they are the supposed ''lesser'' t2 tank lol...
I wouldn't change because I chose a steel and muscle narrow best tank/master of melee path knowing I was giving up outside of the Tank Archetype utility. In raids I have what I chose. IF I only did group content, wanted to be part caster/part tank complete tank with scads of group useful utility as a free bonus, or was happy pwning the armies of adds/yard trash that are the main challenge in today's raids I'd feel pretty foolish not having rolled an SK.
I'd switch quickly were the option given. Man one day I hope I can be as good as your SK's BB. "pwning" all the trash at a level beyond what warriors and pallys can do on arx raids must be something to watch.
Not hard to do better than Warriors vs. adds, in group content, etc. Knights have been doing it for years. Some even have said they figure it's due them since Warriors have so much raid boss mob tanking preference. And yes, our SK's are very good. Really. Legit. It's 4 Warriors, 4 Pallies, 3 SK's not 11 Warriors and for good reasons. Which doesn't mean that SK's shouldn't get some kind of replacement utility for things that don't apply as much or at all in the raid setting. It's a fair request.
You must be terrible at playing a warrior if you think SKs or Paladins can out tank a Warrior on trash in raids or group content outside of a single stunnable mob in the case of paladins. Warriors are nearly unkillable in situations that would destroy knights, and I'm not talking raid bosses. They don't even take ANY damage in certain situations. I'm not going to call out for nerfs on a couple abilities we ALL know are ridiculous and need to be modified, but let's not pretend warriors aren't right up their with necros and wizards as having some of the most overpowered stuff in this game right now. Until those few abilities are modified, SKs (or Paladins) are pretty clearly justified asking for whatever honestly. The only reason paladins have any raid role is the versatility to heal while being able to handle some tanking. The only reason SKs have any raid role is...well, honestly, because its dumb to get rid of people you already have just to try and min/max classes. All things being equal, there is pretty much ZERO reason to have an SK instead of a warrior on raids. And its only the healing/curing and out of group heal modding that gives paladins any value. Lucky for us paladins, you can make good use of 4 paladins due to recast times. There are definitely a couple spots an SK brings a lot to the table for very specific raids, but if you were honestly recruiting a tank for a slot, no reason to not take a warrior. SKs do deserve something for raid desirability.
You must be terrible at playing an SK if you can't leverage your longer range aggro to pick up distant mobs sooner and snaring them when possible allowing debuffers get started before they even arrive; bounce them, pull a boss without 4 adds from a tight room, change targets more quickly in a fast paced group thanks to your faster refresh, actually increase your HP's rather than hope a Cleric is on the ball and drinking a (lol) healing potion for luck. EVERY other SK played with has been doing these things for years. Event design always determines things. I've seen 4 Paladins actually be needed on some events over the years. I've seen tank and spank where no knights were needed. And I've seen some adds stunnable, some snarable, and some hitting harder. I've seen events where even Monks and Rangers were pressed into service tanking adds there were so many. Not a class design issue. That's an event design issue. SK (and Paladins) chose lesser tanking, are entitled to the outside of the Tank Archetype abilities (SK's do have such abilities) they accepted instead, and events should be designed so classes can put their abilities (if unlike Warriors they have some) to use. It's approximately 4 Warriors, 4 Pallies, 3 SK's (for most top 10 guilds AFAIK) not 11 Warriors and for good reasons. Devs are invited to check. BA 105 BattleNecroWizard
Literally "answered" all my statements with useless rambling to prove...nothing but ignorance. Stances are awful? Then you're an awful war. Calling a constant 30% mitigation awful is just baffling. Calling NTTB, a 3.4k mitigation per hit every 3 minutes out of 5 for the group scene on top of our proficiency awful is just blasphemy. Players don't frequent group zones now? You called for people going to new content, well I'm there with my friends and my mitigation proves to be a great advantage for tanking. Yet again, you splice my statement and twist it to make it look bad. I'll say it again. How does snare help you tank when the mob is in the camp? I didn't know the only way to tank was to run around in circles while everyone else attacked it. Last time I checked, when we tank, we stand there getting hit while people heal us. If this changed in the recent past, I'd love to know. Until then, snare doesn't help me tank. Plus, our aggro abilities are potent enough, with long enough range aggro, that we don't have to worry about it being a problem. Get out of the PoP mentality. This is 2015.
Man oh man, I wish you were on my server just so you could watch me. Oh, and the thing about healing... Rugged Energeiac Plate Breastplate. Overflowing Urn of Life. Blood Drinker's Coating. + Heroic blade is a fairly decent heal. And just as an FYI....Abazz is a pally. Clearly stated on his magelo. He's not awful at as SK because he isn't one. lawls.
Actualy I was having the view of an outsider. Even someone who never played EQ would have a hard time believing that SK are a good class in raid after reading you guys. Lets assume the OP and his supporter are completly wrong and that I belive only those of you agaisnt him. The only points you've brought in favor of the SK was their ability to kite... How many of you made a SK to be a kiting class ? The OP made a few statement that are weird. Actualy I wasn't really beliving him int he first place. But those agaisnt Xanathol made stronger point them him about how bad SK are in a raiding environement. Claiming that SK are fine because of class representation in raid while saying that benefit from stacking war/pal stack to decline to a point where your betther bringing a few SK isn't really make me feel like the class is desired.
Yes they are. A Warrior equips a shield. What's he doing? Probably tanking and trying to stick mobs with his sword? Now I can certainly understand a "power move" like Shield Bash, but a stance??? Let me get into the Horse position I think I'll arm blocks and front kicks. Whoops I better assume the using both hands position since...I'm fighting with both hands. They're not elegant You don't add stuff just to add it as an engineer - strap a Volkswagon Beetle to a London Double Decker. You make it all fit in a simple overarching scheme. AND they were never needed. The weapon setups you use is sufficient to dictate overall performance with special moves allowing for skill to be rewarded. A insufficiently long duration wrong solution applicable to a problem we didn't have. Your groups don't start up on mobs before they are in camp? You don't ever use bounce/snare CC too? Really? Maybe that's all you do when you are the tank. Other classes do just a wee bit more. For about 13 years. Longer range aggro - in raids adds have been know not to be at your feet or to be disposed to come to you rather than someone else. Faster refresh aggro - nice to pickup that next add expeditiously when the kill rate is high and there's lots of them. Combat self-healing - melee mitigation doesn't do much vs. AE or DD. Self-healing puts HP's back into the HP bar. etc. etc. etc. If there was no situational advantage to having a fairly even number of each of the three classes that tank in raids (there wasn't in pure one mob tank and spank events, but there aren't many of those these days) the top guilds would use all Warriors (just as a Druid couldn't beg a raid spot in ToV).
I would like to see SKs get a Targets Targets power tap that isnt linked to our Dire line... That would make me happy Bros... Just sayin
I think if I ever snared a mob on incoming to give us time to debuff it before it got to camp my group would all die. Not in EQ mind you, but literally from laughing their off to a point they asphyxiate themselves. The whole sk's are better in groups argument comes from ae aggro vs old content. We can we can hold multiple old content mobs attention allowing some classes to ae, basically the exact opposite of what you are saying. How the hell 10 years later do I still get roped into arguing with BB /boggle
I will just add if you think you need some help ask for stances that are not as good as the warriors but better then nothing . An Example the sk defensive stance could increase taps by 20% add 10% mitigation and Increase hate by 5% . The 2 hander could increase your spear or whatever you guys use for damage by 40% while increasing the damage on hits by 10%. Are stances clunky sure but they sure beat nothing at all your not going to get anymore increases to your defensive discs . The last thing I would tell you to ask for is a version of flash of anger that is different then flash of anger non extendable. The paladins should try to get the same kinda thing but their defensive stance should increase all heals by 10 % increase mitigation by 10% increase hate by 5% or 15 % on stuns. 2hander could increase group healing by 20% increase DD spells by 10% and increase 2 hand hits by 40% You want to focus on little but constant increases and single target aggro over ae aggro and absorb abilities are also looked down upon because they increase swarm ability.
All, As far as the OPs question, this is so hard to balance between all the classes. Warriors were supposed to be the best tanks. PAL/SKs were to be the next best tanks. Paladins were to be WAR/CLR combination having cleric type dps and abilities. SKs were to be a WAR/NECK combination necromancy type dps and abilities. The issue really goes down to and the original posts question if SKs are seen as the DPS tank where should they be and how close to real DPS classes should they be. As for the OP, I feel some of your pain, I retired the SK because I felt that they lost the extra edge. I am now a paladin because I feel their dps is close enough or as good as a SKs and their utility aspects seem better for me at least. After spending years and years of SK development was a painful endeavor for sure but may be the thing that you may need to do. My thoughts, Rykard
Sks were never the dps tank . Warriors have always been the dps tank. We were the baseline for all dps within the game. we were balanced to be the normal dps sks and paladins were at 80% of us dps classes were 120% of us it has blurred a little bit by the dps classes % but the value still remains a balancing act. You are only meant to become a dps tank when you are burning while actively using your spell book . We don't burn too great instead we keep the highest sustained damage within a group. When you are burning all your spells you are technically burning and not sustaining just a fyi.
Honestly, I don't know how I'd feel about knights getting those stances. I think it'd be very easy for Eli to implement and I find it better than 95% of the other suggestions in this thread though. I think when pal/sks got a form of defensive in RoF it started a slippery slope which lead to wars needing to be compensated aka the original over powered NTBB, which then lead to the nerfed NTTB and the shield profiency mitigation. IMO, none of that should have been done in first place. I wish all that would have just been chalked and only a couple DPS stances came to pass
