Test Update 08/12/2014 - Pet Changes Round 4

Fact is, a SK using their discs and their mitigation abilities receives a similar amount of DPS vs. a single mob as an earth pet under full rune rotation from the mage. Fortify Companion doesn't even matter, because it drops within a minute vs. modern mobs' DPS.

But put the same SK and earth pet up against 3 mobs, and you are going to see a gigantic difference in performance. Not only does the SK's mitigation abilities scale well vs. multiple mobs, but so does their self healing, which is of course never even calculated.

Effectively speaking, we've seen player SKs stand up to pulls of 3-4 white/yellow cons combining both. Try the same with the earth pet and you are going to get SPLATTERED.

Daegun of course ignores all of this in posting strictly parses of 1v1 COTF T1 trash mobs.

But every mage who's had time to play in ToR/AH know that the amount of DPS pets are taking now vastly outstrip what they were doing before, and that yes, this increases exponentially between 1 mob and 2-3 mobs. Members of the mage community have already given the parses showing this to be the case in other threads, and the mob has made minimal changes to the earth pet's tanking ability - therefore, what we've parsed before remains the case.

when I did that pars of my necro war pet today. I was not happy. NEVER have I have had to help my merc on a even con trash mob. Chose to when all dots on mob and stuff yes HAD to never. Any mob even con or lower should never need the mage/necro to help the merc out. As for bst pet tanking even con or lower should be a walk in the park for them healing. As for yellow/red cons thats different.

I appreciate everyone that is providing parses. I'm far less moved by those occupying the thread with character attacks. Let the numbers speak for themselves.

If the numbers provided are fraudulent, they speak a different language, though, Zoran.

Daegun just makes an effort to find scenarios, in which pets do roughly equal to a tank class, thereby ignoring the fact that these "scenarios" are carefully crafted to show but one tiny slice of pet's performance.

In most scenarios, any player tank even only worth half his plat will outtank any pet all day long without effort.

The amusing biased tone of posters is actually getting boring. Thread after thread and page after page, ugh. From Aristo:

Gotta love the attacks on Daegun because his data shows pets being almost right back to where they were.

Hopefully you'll understand now what I meant from the other posts. I'm sorry about being snide towards you, Sojero, as I thought you realized that shining defense was only the vie part of shining bastion. That is it. You know cleric shining bastion is 2 buffs nowadays right? You block the vie portion and still get the other buff (72 charges) that actually does the heal and stun? Sure Sk/war don't want to do this, but pal/rng can for the ones that actually keep their own self buffs up. No, there aren't times my ro is down because I recast it when it gets to ~80 charges. There aren't any mobs I've tanked in game including raid trash up to Burn Out raid that rip a 15% vie off with a ~350k cap in the time it procs ~15 times. I'm done side track posting from topic here as this has nothing to do with Aristo's goal.

Yup, group earth pet or raid necro warrior pet can tank 1 trash mob from last tier just fine, maybe even better than fine, I guess pets are overpowered, or at least balanced. Even though that scenario exists generally less often than pulls with multiples. Sure they can be split, by necro's or by mages with cooldown use, but sometimes u don't find out till too late that one is root immune or whatever...and the pet needs to be able to tank both for at least a short period of time.

I could keep expanding scenarios involving multiples, but it'd be redundant because tanking multiples is a part of regular paced groups and necessary for most of the later progression missions. I don't mean to attack Daegun's character, but he was calling pets balanced in their most nerfed state, and the fact he admits to how parses can be manipulated doesn't make him seem transparent to me, it makes him seem like someone who knows quite a few ways to manipulate the situation for his purposes, some he shares, some others have to find out. The only reason he posts the way he does now, is because he had been called out numerous times by other player tanks and pet classes

Glad to hear others are seeing that pets are still viable.

Why should a class solo be able to do what you just admitted is a group activity and group progression? If you want to play solo, you have to be picky about where you go and what you do. In a group you can do more, and can be less picky. Why is that a problem?

Daegun was just posting the truth. People can do what they want, many/most will lobby for one side or the other, then you have a couple in the middle. That is human nature. Just because he accepts the fact that manipulating parses can be done, and accepts the fact that it will be done, doesn't mean he does it himself. With that though, as Artisto said, parse yourself, or ask friends to help you. This will give you a sense of who is being valid and who is not.

EDIT: Necromonious, this isn't aimed at you, you just brought a bunch of points that have been thrown around together, and made it easy to quote

Same mob, slightly different set up. This time I did a /resetaa but then manually selected aa's and had autogrant off.

All relevant pet aa's:
[Wed Aug 13 10:23:59 2014] You have gained the ability "Companion's Alacrity" at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:40:16 2014] You have improved Companion's Alacrity 3 at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:24:09 2014] You have gained the ability "Companion's Blessing" at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:24:43 2014] You have improved Companion's Blessing 21 at a cost of 12 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:24:46 2014] You have gained the ability "Companion's Durability" at a cost of 3 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:25:16 2014] You have improved Companion's Durability 21 at a cost of 10 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:25:19 2014] You have gained the ability "Companion's Fury" at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:25:22 2014] You have improved Companion's Fury 3 at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:25:27 2014] You have gained the ability "Fortify Companion" at a cost of 6 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:25:44 2014] You have improved Fortify Companion 12 at a cost of 9 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:26:00 2014] You have gained the ability "Hastened Fortify Companion" at a cost of 4 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:26:07 2014] You have improved Hastened Fortify Companion 6 at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:26:43 2014] You have gained the ability "Aegis of Kildrukaun" at a cost of 12 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:27:16 2014] You have gained the ability "Companion's Agility" at a cost of 3 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:27:31 2014] You have improved Companion's Agility 9 at a cost of 9 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:27:53 2014] You have gained the ability "Elemental Agility" at a cost of 3 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:27:56 2014] You have improved Elemental Agility 3 at a cost of 9 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:28:02 2014] You have gained the ability "Elemental Alacrity" at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:28:45 2014] You have improved Elemental Alacrity 25 at a cost of 12 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:28:54 2014] You have gained the ability "Elemental Durability" at a cost of 3 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:28:57 2014] You have improved Elemental Durability 3 at a cost of 9 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:29:08 2014] You have gained the ability "Elemental Fury" at a cost of 3 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:29:46 2014] You have improved Elemental Fury 25 at a cost of 6 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:30:12 2014] You have gained the ability "Frenzied Burnout" at a cost of 6 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:30:19 2014] You have improved Frenzied Burnout 5 at a cost of 10 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:30:24 2014] You have gained the ability "Extended Burnout" at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:30:37 2014] You have improved Extended Burnout 9 at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:31:02 2014] You have gained the ability "Hastened Burnout" at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:31:08 2014] You have improved Hastened Burnout 5 at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:31:36 2014] You have gained the ability "Host in the Shell" at a cost of 12 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:31:38 2014] You have improved Host in the Shell 2 at a cost of 15 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:31:59 2014] You have gained the ability "Mend Companion" at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:32:08 2014] You have gained the ability "Pet Discipline" at a cost of 6 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:32:14 2014] You have gained the ability "Advanced Pet Discipline" at a cost of 5 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:32:31 2014] You have gained the ability "Reaching Burnout" at a cost of 3 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:32:39 2014] You have gained the ability "Replenish Companion" at a cost of 3 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:33:01 2014] You have gained the ability "Small Modulation Shard" at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:33:07 2014] You have gained the ability "Medium Modulation Shard" at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:33:10 2014] You have gained the ability "Large Modulation Shard" at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:33:19 2014] You have gained the ability "Sturdy Companion" at a cost of 7 ability points.
[Wed Aug 13 10:33:32 2014] You have improved Sturdy Companion 9 at a cost of 7 ability points.


Ghrek Squatnot on 8/13/2014 in 2206sec
Total
--- DMG: 4839198 (100%) @ 2194 dps (2194 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 16624632 @7560dps
Zaner
--- DMG: 4839193 (100%) @ 2257 dps (2194 sdps)
------ Total: 4839193 -- Hit: 4663713 -- Bash: 109560 -- Kick: 65920
------ Normal rate: 73.6% (67.5% of DMG) -- Critical rate: 26.4% (32.5% of DMG)
------ Attempts: 7113 -- Hits: 4429 -- Misses: 2078 -- Defended: 606 -- Accuracy: 68.1%
--- DMG to PC: 16133771 @7546dps
Tweelis
--- DMG: 5 (0%) @ 5 dps (0 sdps)
------ Total: 5 -- DirDmg: 5
------ Normal rate: 100% (100% of DMG)
------ Attempts: 1 -- Hits: 1 -- Misses: 0 -- Defended: 0 -- Accuracy: 100%
--- DMG to PC: 14802 @14802dps
Furlakin
--- DMG to PC: 476059 @7934dps
Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Ghrek Squatnot on 8/13/2014
Ghrek Squatnot - 19
--- Veil of Snow - 19
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

Ghrek Squatnot on 8/13/2014
Zaner - 272
--- Earth Elemental Strike X - 272
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3

/G Tanking summary for: Zaner --- Total damage: 16133771 --- Avg hit: 5251 --- Swings: 4194 --- Defended: 690 (16.5%) --- Hit: 3072 (73.2%) --- Missed: 432 (10.3%) --- Accuracy: 87.7% --- Dodged: 107 (3%) --- Parried: 95 (2.4%) --- Blocked: 309 (7.4%) --- Riposted: 179 (4.7%) --- Absorbed: 0 (0%)


Zaner - vs - Ghrek Squatnot - SLASH
Attempts 2022 100%
Missed 214 10.58%
Dodged 55 2.72%
Parried 45 2.23%
Blocked 146 7.22%
Riposted 86 4.25%
Absorbed 0 0%
1883 37 1.83%
2034 71 3.51%
2426 1 0.05%
2510 590 29.18%
2620 2 0.1%
3206 5 0.25%
3234 41 2.03%
3510 3 0.15%
3791 7 0.35%
3957 52 2.57%
4053 2 0.1%
4378 4 0.2%
4596 1 0.05%
4680 45 2.23%
4963 5 0.25%
5138 3 0.15%
5404 42 2.08%
5549 5 0.25%
5680 4 0.2%
6127 42 2.08%
6135 7 0.35%
6223 1 0.05%
6721 6 0.3%
6765 1 0.05%
6850 51 2.52%
7307 6 0.3%
7308 2 0.1%
7573 48 2.37%
7851 1 0.05%
7892 6 0.3%
8297 44 2.18%
8393 3 0.15%
8479 9 0.45%
8935 3 0.15%
9020 40 1.98%
9064 9 0.45%
9478 1 0.05%
9650 2 0.1%
9743 45 2.23%
10020 2 0.1%
10236 4 0.2%
10467 35 1.73%
10563 2 0.1%
10822 2 0.1%
11105 2 0.1%
11190 32 1.58%
11408 4 0.2%
11648 1 0.05%
11913 36 1.78%
11993 3 0.15%
12637 31 1.53%
13360 24 1.19%
14083 14 0.69%
14806 15 0.74%
15530 9 0.45%
16253 13 0.64%



Zaner - vs - Ghrek Squatnot - BASH
Attempts 2080 100%
Missed 213 10.24%
Dodged 52 2.5%
Parried 49 2.36%
Blocked 156 7.5%
Riposted 89 4.28%
Absorbed 0 0%
1341 4 0.19%
1449 11 0.53%
1788 104 5%
1883 31 1.49%
2034 66 3.17%
2426 4 0.19%
2510 578 27.79%
2620 4 0.19%
2968 5 0.24%
3206 6 0.29%
3234 35 1.68%
3510 2 0.1%
3791 6 0.29%
3957 45 2.16%
4053 3 0.14%
4378 7 0.34%
4680 44 2.12%
4963 8 0.38%
5138 1 0.05%
5404 28 1.35%
5549 5 0.24%
5680 3 0.14%
6127 46 2.21%
6135 4 0.19%
6223 4 0.19%
6721 3 0.14%
6765 1 0.05%
6850 38 1.83%
6971 1 0.05%
7307 6 0.29%
7308 1 0.05%
7573 39 1.88%
7851 5 0.24%
7892 4 0.19%
8297 42 2.02%
8393 4 0.19%
8479 6 0.29%
8935 2 0.1%
9020 37 1.78%
9064 1 0.05%
9478 1 0.05%
9650 1 0.05%
9743 35 1.68%
10020 2 0.1%
10467 42 2.02%
10822 1 0.05%
11105 1 0.05%
11190 44 2.12%
11408 3 0.14%
11913 41 1.97%
11993 1 0.05%
12190 1 0.05%
12580 3 0.14%
12637 16 0.77%
13360 22 1.06%
14083 17 0.82%
14806 19 0.91%
15530 17 0.82%
16253 10 0.48%


Zaner - vs - Ghrek Squatnot - KICK
Attempts 92 100%
Missed 5 5.43%
Dodged 0 0%
Parried 1 1.09%
Blocked 7 7.61%
Riposted 4 4.35%
Absorbed 0 0%
1342 4 4.35%
1350 1 1.09%
1450 3 3.26%
1455 1 1.09%
1458 1 1.09%
1464 2 2.17%
1466 2 2.17%
1473 1 1.09%
1476 1 1.09%
1731 1 1.09%
1789 28 30.43%
1791 1 1.09%
1794 1 1.09%
1796 1 1.09%
1798 4 4.35%
1800 2 2.17%
1802 2 2.17%
1805 4 4.35%
1807 2 2.17%
1809 1 1.09%
1811 1 1.09%
1816 1 1.09%
1818 2 2.17%
1820 2 2.17%
1822 1 1.09%
1824 1 1.09%
1827 1 1.09%
1829 1 1.09%
1831 2 2.17%


With the above numbers I did a few things to give more of a real world incoming damage.
[Wed Aug 13 11:07:52 2014] You begin casting Fortify Companion.
[Wed Aug 13 11:09:59 2014] Your pet's Fortify Companion spell has worn off.
[Wed Aug 13 11:22:53 2014] You begin casting Fortify Companion.
[Wed Aug 13 11:24:59 2014] Your pet's Fortify Companion spell has worn off.
[Wed Aug 13 11:16:37 2014] You begin casting Host in the Shell.
[Wed Aug 13 11:16:58 2014] Your pet's Host in the Shell spell has worn off.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:42 2014] You begin casting Host in the Shell.
[Wed Aug 13 11:21:03 2014] Your pet's Host in the Shell spell has worn off.
[Wed Aug 13 11:25:08 2014] You begin casting Host in the Shell.
[Wed Aug 13 11:25:31 2014] Your pet's Host in the Shell spell has worn off.
[Wed Aug 13 11:30:33 2014] You begin casting Host in the Shell.
[Wed Aug 13 11:30:51 2014] Your pet's Host in the Shell spell has worn off.
[Wed Aug 13 11:36:00 2014] You begin casting Host in the Shell.
[Wed Aug 13 11:36:22 2014] Your pet's Host in the Shell spell has worn off.

Having Fortify Companion last 2 minutes and change. Host in the shell coming in at about 20 seconds. Something seems amiss here, is this what was intended for these abilities?

As has been mentioned elsewhere but enrage isn't working all that well.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:07 2014] Zaner has become ENRAGED.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:11 2014] Ghrek Squatnot bashes Zaner for 7573 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:12 2014] Ghrek Squatnot slashes Zaner for 6127 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:14 2014] Ghrek Squatnot slashes Zaner for 3234 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:16 2014] Ghrek Squatnot slashes Zaner for 6850 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:18 2014] Ghrek Squatnot bashes Zaner for 2510 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:18 2014] Ghrek Squatnot bashes Zaner for 2510 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 13 11:20:19 2014] Zaner is no longer enraged.

There's a 30% difference between 80% DI1 and 50% DI1. That's not remotely 'almost right back to where they were,' and that's operating on the principle that pets were not fine where they were before, which isn't necessarily even the case. Pets have ever overperformed in 1v1 due to the interaction with passive and active rune spells. That's been obvious to everyone who understands basic spell mechanics. But there are plenty of situations in which player tanks destroy pet tanks. Mages have painstakingly shown this through their parses of how pets scale with multiple mobs, only to have Daegun completely ignore them and continue to parse on 'a forest elder' in ETK as though that shows the whole picture.

It's not the parses that people object to. It's the way they are presented and the interpretations that follow them. Had Daegun just left his parses in the thread without drawing exaggerated conclusions over and over from them, not to mention boast about his 'single-handed achievement' of nerfing pets over All-Chat, people won't be so eager to attack him. As it is, he's reaping what he sew.

What makes you think he is talking about soloing? Are groups where the pet is the tank not valid groups? For pet tanking to be viable, pets have to be able to tank multiple mobs without unreasonable requirements on healing. It's that simple. Nobody's saying that a mage ought to be able to solo all the missions and rares. They're saying that pets ought to tank adequately in practical scenarios, which is not one mob ad infinitum.

If you are in a group and you "have" to tank multiple mobs at one time, your being lazy and not using abilities and you should fail. There needs to be challenge to the game, otherwise we all just log in, click the I win button for the day, and log out. If you make everything trivial for a pet class solo or molo, it makes it very trivial for a group.

Can you even go into a heroic adventure with just 1 person? I've honestly never tried lol. In a group, u aren't always going to have perfect pulls, especially in T2 zones where nearly everything is root/snare/mez immune. If u need to blow a crapload o cooldowns to tank multiples in a group as a pet class, or have the pets randomly dying (followed shortly thereafter by the players probably) because cleric mercs and codowns can't keep up with multiple T2 mobs in T2 group missions, it is going to be a problem

Np np

Tell that to the group geared tanks who are doing it all day long? Nerf SKs, Paladins, and Warriors?

sk, pal, and war, HAVE to tank multiples???? no, I think they can choose to. That is the incentive for taking them over a pet.

They need to balance the two. Your more difficult zones and missions are empty except for a few raid gear groups going after an item testing out skills. People keep complaining on how easy this game has become and yet every time something is released with difficulty they complain it is too hard.

You have to have the balance of easier current content and more difficult current content. There is not enough groups to go around and only so many people are willing to box. I could care less you can box, solo, and molo in the group game as it has no effect on me. It's the raid game that balance matters so you don't alienate certain classes to defeat a raid.

I don't think you can, but I honestly haven't tried. I will be honest with you, watching a tank try and take even 2 is a fun thing to watch in group gear. The difference between a raid geared tank and a group geared tank is more than most people think. I was in the mines with a group and we were doing 1-2 at a time no problem with me tanking. On a 3 I had to use a defensive disc and usually did my epic too. That was with 1 merc healer on reactive. When I left and they had a group war, lets just say it didn't go nearly as well. To many people compare pets to raid tanks, there is a night and day difference between a group geared and raid geared tank. There is a huge difference between a well played tank and a mediocre tank as well.

So to the half of eq that doesn't raid, balance doesn't matter?

So make some scenario's of your own and show parses?
You have to remember. Think bar graph from 1 - 5. If PC tanks are a 5 (where devs want them to be) and pets are at a number where devs don't want them to be. They will adjust accordingly.

Take your pet into grelleths and kill a yellow in there (they exist at 100) then take a pet to AH and see how that goes. As I was explaining to someone last night. Being effective in solo DOESN'T mean that you get to be effective at all levels of play, fight a yellow mob in AH vs grelleths and see the difference. They are both yellow cons.

As a paladin I cannot solo effectively in AH but I can solo effectively in chapterhouse. Why do you think that is?

Are some of the mages actually trying to claim their pet should have parity with player tanks? Like, that's a position you're trying to defend? A raid level earth pet shouldn't even tank as well as a full group gear knight. Mages are not the fourth tanking class, and you have the DPS to prove it.