Test Update 8/08/2014 - Pet Changes Round 3

It's nice to see some evidence that honestly refutes the cries of panic.

*puts more popcorn in his mouth*

But seriously, multiple mobs are an issue. Who cares if you can blow every useful AA you have and kill two at the same time (and even then it was close). The problem remains that pets see a significant drop in ability when you add a mob. Even with a fully fledged CotF raid focus it's a huge issue (you're forced to basically chain heal/rune). Petty bickering won't change that.

So we could constructively try to fix the very real issues with the current plan, or we can ignore the data and post videos where we pull off unimpressive feats. Your choice.

So... anyone have any actual parses?

First parses don't show the whole picture, no matter what the DI distribution is. Now showing actual and practical use in game doesn't matter at all?

Pets were also supposedly nerfed so bad they couldn't tank a yellow conned mob with 2 mercs healing and bard songs. Now it's an unimpressive feat?

Even after being told by a mage main swearing up and down that it was impossible to accomplish said feat with a focus 2 tiers higher than my own?

A video is data, just as much as a hit log. The numbers weren't getting anywhere, so... Switched my form of data.

And now we all know it's possible. But it doesn't change the problem at all.

Edit: I wasn't addressing your video directly with my statement, I was more referring to posting videos of raid geared DPS moloing multiple mobs. Enough classes can do it that it really isn't that impressive, or relevant to the conversation.

Isn't this about what pets are going to be capable of, and are currently capable of?

These threads are completely littered with people saying pets can't XYZ. I am just picking them off one at a time showing that they can, so it's irrefutable.

Funny thing happens then though, someone comes along and downplays it so it's in a light of being easy for everyone, after it was said it couldn't be done or pets couldn't achieve it so that they could make a point stating that pets needed more.

And then, even when shown it's not easy for everyone, in fact, it kills others quite readily...

It's still easy for everyone?

If you want to look at the parses of what my pet did, they're readily available. I never stated I couldn't molo two yellows. It would be difficult but it's obviously possible. There are most certainly other classes that can molo the same 2 mobs as well. I never said it was easy nor doable by everyone. Such is the game

Now I agree the person who said they couldn't was incorrect. The problem is everyone glossed over the hugely important and relevant data and attacked the inaccuracy. But the data is still relevant and represents a huge problem with pet abilities at the moment.

This thread's goal is to analyse and provide feedback on the pet changes. Yes, your video was relevant to that. But it doesn't change the basic fact that pet defensives degrade significantly versus a second mob. I'm not trying to downplay your findings, but if you parsed that with one of those mobs compared to two of those mobs you'd see a huge difference, which is what we're trying to address. Proving that you can do something is good, but analysing how it was done and where there could be improvement is key.

Wow ...

Listen, I know this is all about raid bosses being tanked by mage pets sometimes. Warriors get their feelings hurt and cry foul. There was no issue in the group game, it was actually a blessing, because people could actually play the game and do something with pets. I know the DI was broken, but pets are now getting DI 20 hits too. I just hope that the final version of these nerfs allow me to play eq and enjoy it. I rely on my pet to be able to play eq and many many others do also. I think the devs need to realize what a blessing pets have been for the eq group game. The players who are trying to get the pets nerfed, need to see the bigger picture of the way eq is now.

Berserker defensives stack with the offensive discs.

Maybe he didn't use Reckless disc in the best possible light either (He seems to pull them with juggernaut up, but i don't see any further spell casts from him - epic + third spire to max out the reckless disc)

Regardless I'm not actually sure what the point is you're trying to make. Rorcex died when 1 mob was like 5% or below in health. Another video prolly he would have lived.

Berserkers definitely lack defensively compared to other chain and leather wearers.

About the video and various topics brought up in thread as well as solutions...

Can a raid equipped mage tank two yellow on keeper of the flame in AH?
There are two possibilities for the different results (both of which can be proven to find out the answer to this question).

a) When I was parsing with Brutial in AH, we did so with 2 mercs in the group, with my merc on reactive and his merc on balanced. As a result of that parse and how hard that fight was, I said that
there was no way a mage with one merc alone could have survived. This was an assumption on my part which could be wrong because in hindsight the reactive/balanced alignment the day before was
not confirmed for that fight. It was the first time I had logged back into test, and although my merc was on the same setting, it is possible that Brutial had be doing some parses on his own with his set to
reactive and we just didn't.

The solution is for me to log in with Brutial parsing the test again but with only one merc instead of two and actually seeing if it can be done versus assuming on the performace of two mercs that it could not be done with one.

b) Although this would be extremely devious and I sincerely doubt Denial would actually do this, everyone knows that a pet can hold up to 84 buffs, most of which will never show up on the default UI pet window.
It is a remote possibility that a player could junk up the pet and once the junks filled all the visible buff slots on the UI, to load up all the raid buffs, then click off almost all of the buffs visible in the wndow to make the pet appear and perform stronger than just mage and merc buffs.
Again I am not suggesting that Denial did this, just offering an way it could have been taped as the parse was not included which would have shown if there were much less damage being done.
So I really need to check if the mistake in a) above actually occurred by trying it with just one merc on reactive and confirm that can be done.

About the whole soloing issue and comparing mages (a soloing class who from the conception of EQ has always been defined by the strength of their pet) to classes who are not designed to solo (Monks, SK's etc.).

Should a mage be able to solo mobs above and beyond a Monk or an SK?

a) Mages (and the other two pet classes) [and by pet classes I mean archtype pet focused classes BST MAG NEC] are soloing classes, designed to out an adventure across Norrath and to very well on their own. I remember all those years ago, reading the Verant class description in the little red book that came with the game. "when playing a magician, you are always accompanied by your pet so you are never really alone, it is like having your own group." When cleric mercs were introduced this allowed mages (an the other two pet classes) to actually have their pet and a merc in the group. So 1 (PC) + 2 (pet) + 3 (merc) equals a three person (kinda) group. The uniqueness to these three classes is clear as well as the extra advantage when moloing.

b) Monks, SK's and other classes [who are not archtype pet focused classes] do not have focused pets because the design of the class, the importance of the pet was and is considered trivial to the success of the class compared to the three pet classes. In fact it is quite common to see SK's and other classes who have pets, never even use them on raids, because they really don't depend on them. (versus mages who often logged from the game if told by their RL's to not use pets in raids that were actually designed to be fought with pets present.

I am sure you all remember the infamous banner we made in 2004, in response to raid leaders who would outright ban pets from raids, (prior to the advent of pet "ghold", pet "focus", and pet "spellhold" commands).....



Should mages be able to tank raid boss mobs better than tanks?

Mages all agree on this one. No we should not.So what is the solution?

Since day one, mages have recommended to flag raid bosses the developers do not want pets to be able to tank as not pet friendly so it cannot happen versus ruining the solo and group game by nerfing out pets to hell and back. Perhaps PoW type solution on just the boss, versus the entire raid.

Hi there

I did the same test on this round of changes with Roon.
Thoughts on this encounter :- I was able to do some DPS via nukes and RS pets click pets rabbit and veeshens swarm, however Roon hitting pet was very noticeable and ratio of 70% keeping pet alive to 30% DPS. The fight was a close call but I managed to beat Roon this time. If a blocker was down merc healing stepped up. Info below

Playing as normal with some extra spells:

Level 100 Mage EM 14 pet has Iceflame eminence rank 2 burnout 11 rank 2 and arcane distillect, Certitude rank 2 with level 100 j5 merc on reactive. lvl Earth pet with Spellhold off.

Mage level 99 heal using Aegis of Kildruikin AA, Aegis of Nefori Spell Auspice of shadows Spell and Groundwell stance. Normally I do not use these but used these as they refreshed. Also used Replenish companion, fortify companion companions blessing Virulent Talon Host of elements Frenzied burnout RS pet

This is 100% why Developer's almost never post numbers. Because people fixate on the numbers then try to hold them to a posted number goal when Numbers in a Vacuum don't mean much.

Aristo then clarified multiple times, that his goal was to find the sweet spot where pets can tank, but not AFK tank. Tank, but require some effort. This was NOT true in 2nd round just lining up his original goal.

The problem was pretty simple, DI is only one factor, and when pets lower Avoidance was factored. Pets were way underpreforming in Change2. They are still by all accounts underpreforming if the goal is to handle 2 Trash Mobs.

Pets have always been tanks, for caster groups and non-melee. Keeping in mind the inherent group design, they have always served as a better tank than the Monk/Ranger. I've been playing a long time, and I dont ever remember people turning away a "Real" tank class in order to go for a pet tank.
If your not losing group slots, then what is your issue? And there are quite a Few Named where having a Pet Tank, just simply won't work. It cant react to emotes, or doesnt have the control to back off rooted mobs or all kinds of things.

Raid wise, there should be limits on pet tanking, and perhaps more. But the reality there is that should be CODE related to the "Raid mob" flag then to the pet related. I don't want to see pet tanking on Raids.

This doesn't work well unless they want to redesign the Pet Classes and create Combo Nuke/Pet Heals and the beast can't even pet tank and do much at all. I just dont see the real world issue you are talking about. So Beast can sit back and heal his pet... Okay... And when the mob dies next year, how does that compare to a Tank moloing far faster than just a Warder dpsing. Let alone if its a mob the Knight can self heal and use a wizard merc for.

Not an issue a warrior should be tanking anyways. Its the better option with good disc usage.

Please post the graph of the pet tanking while the warriors stand around watching. Then post the graph of the warrior tanking that needs the pet to tank in his place to show where the issue is. Would love to see this unattainable by warriors tanking at work. If you are a second option to the pet it is not the pet that has the issue. This thread is intended to work on the pet issues and saying you stand around doing nothing while a pet tanks has nothing to do with the pets. We certainly don't back up the pets in raids and we don't even do defensive swaps as they are not currently needed.

Brutial

Can we please stop with the "Can this class Molo as well as this class" because there's no uniform standard on what you are talking about.

Some mobs don't summon. Druids, Wizards, Necros solo them all the time. Mage class was designed without a Root/Snare specifically with the idea that the Mage would have to stand up the mob, not root/snare it.

Some mobs are trivial low blues. Monks with 30 second mend. SK still can swarm them. Paladins can solo. All 3 do even better standing up with a merc.

AFK tanking? Gee my warrior in low end raid gear tanks 2 yellow mobs with 1 reactive merc way better than my Earth Pet with a Raid Focus does. Have shield specialist on, and hit 1 macro. Done.

Some classes don't solo worth a damn. Rogues suck soloing (except old assassinate method) but they get other things to compensate. SOS, Evade, Nice DPS.

And even if we get some uniform standard so every class can "equally solo/molo" whats next. Every class equally DPS? Rogues/Rangers against humanoids, and Zerkers against all blue do significantly more dps as more desire than other dps classes.

What about Raids. I've seen 9 bards on a raid. Guilds never have enough bards. Guess we need to nerf bards in xp groups and raids because they are too desired.

What about CC do we all need a Beam like CC like Vinelash, Mez?

What XP groups, why do some groups combos get more XP per hour then other Group Combos? Should we limit XP per hour?

What about Picking up collection items, running from A-B, doing a quest, time between fades?

EQ is not a game where every class has perfectly aligned abilities, some classes shine in different areas.

Let's try and keep the discussion point focused.

What is goal of Pet Tanks.
Should a Pet Tank with Focus X be able to Tank Mob Y (Trash, Named) with Heal Amount Z (1 Merc? 2 Mercs, good healer, mage healing)

How many trash mobs should a Pet Tank be able to handle. With what amount of support.

Not compared to other classes, but compared to goal.

I like how Feiddan ran in and was like BYAAAAH! with a twenty-foot kick. Rorce almost got one!

I can't say how it'd go with a paladin and healer merc. War of attrition, long drawn-out fight because of defensives keeping the paladin alive, and poor, laughable DPS. That's why we run around with damage casters.

I would like to see how far a Mage gets when focusing 100% on healing the earth pet. And use a wiz merc.

Where does it say at the archetype level of both archetypes you are no where close to the highest dps classes and you should be no where close to the tank classes either .

Soloing should have penalties which could be longer fights or a more involved strategy.

The only benefit from soloing should be to save time looking for group and ease of access which there already is in all the entry zones complete playing fields for soloing.

There should be a huge benefit for grouping with a traditional group.

Wrong.Sol Invictus mages are constantly in the top 10 dps parses on raid bosses when everyone is doing full burns. We are the masters of mid-range burns with wizards blowing us out of the water on short burns and necros on long duration fights.

If you are not seeing that when you raid, it is probably because mages typically cast from max melee range, (and not getting picked up on the parses) because unlike the other casters we have a great defensive tools for our pets, but very very few physical defense utilities for ourselves. Everyone knows if you want to duel a mage and win, you want to avoid the pet, and focus on killing the mage, because that is our weakness.

We will cast in parse range if pallies and other classes use utilities like splash heals with great success.

There is a huge benefit to grouping. Have you ever watched a mage solo content for hours compared to a group?
The solo mage takes forever to accomplish the same content, because we simply and constantly run out of mana.
Mages lack mana regen utility are the worst of the caster classes at self mana recovery because we are a class who sacrifices utility, for the sake of managing a powerful pet and using a tightly focused spell set.

Please read last paragraph in our 2014 class in-game description below:

You should be doing passive parses to get your pet right , instead of all this smoke and mirrors Danielle it is not going to help your class. Mages have excellent mana recovery through multiple means if you use them all. I don't even look for C on my mage anymore because I do not need it.

And the last paragraph does not say better then a real player anywhere . They already sustain close to our sustained dps molo while they tank.

Aristo has already seen the issue even before players provided data.

Point one - wrong. Nobody plays passively and if you want to tune the game to see how it effects players, you need to have people play they way they play and watch what happens. Most certainly when you are comparing a pet who has defensive abilities font loaded against a PC who needs to actually use spells, passive/active aa's.

Point two - wrong. Sure a mage can just dps with their pet and not nuke, but the amount of dps the pet outs out does not make up for the sustained dps a necro can.

Point three - wrong. Are you kidding me? Mages soloing constantly run out of mana if they even attempt experiencing at the same level as a group. The fact that you play one and are denying that fact is amazing. perhaps you are thinking of boxing versus soloing/moloing. (and remembing using c from a chanter or kitty crack, etc. versus just potions, rods, gather mana/thaumatize, and water pet form.)