fransisco .. do you play a knight at all ? and if so do you have any AA on him and also high lvl spells .. because when grouping and when raiding knights tank better than wars ... nights and pallies tank raid bosses very well and if they know thier class and have the AA they can tank longer than a war because when FS drops .. so does the war most times .. and you saying we want to nerf other classes to make ourselves better ? where on here have we said that at all .. we just want to be on somewhat even ground ... we want to be able to get groups outside of raids .. because you cant lvl and get AA just raiding you have to do group content to get things done .. if you only have a war main .. you are very hard pressed to get a group and most times you get one its because its friends that want to try and help you lvl
If on your raid, the "Warrior" group rarely has a paladin in it for aura or group armor of the inquisitor, I'm not quite sure what to say, unless you just don't have a decent amount of paladins. Boosting heals is very relevant and would be far from fairly useless to GREATLY helping the warrior class. In group and raid game.
I still believe that the best way to nerf NTtB in the long term, without breaking it, would have just been to leave it untouched. In a couple of tiers the fixed damage reduction would have become insignificant anyway. Leave the charges so we can't exploit it on grey cons, remove the hassle.
We do lack Paladins (we have two active ones). Sure, we sometimes have a Paladin in the group, but we cope fine when there isn't one (which is 99% of the time). A far bigger problem (starting with COTF1b) was getting one-rounded -- something that even a 10000% heal boost AA will not solve. The problem is having something like 165-175k hitpoints (when WT is down) gets you one-rounded with a quad 50k hitter. When WT is running (205-215k hitpoints) you can tank it in combination with defensive as long as enough healers spam you. This is something we found out long ago when beating the Beast in UF -- we didn't heal enough on that raid, parses showed that the incoming DPS spikes sometimes were higher than the DPS healed (something that was hard to see during the raid itself as healing was fine until a spike hit) -- simple solution was to add more heal spam and the tanks consistenly survived for their full disc duration. So in my opinion, Healing Boost AA's are useless because if you already have the hitpoints to not get one-rounded, all you need to do is to add enough healers. If you donot have the hitpoints, then it doesn't matter either way. Ironically, in the group game, where one-rounding is rare, the Warriors that will get the most ouf of healing boost AA's will be the ones that have a judicious pool of hitpoints -- in other words, raid geared Warriors. Group geared Warriors are gonna get overhealed anyway, unless your healer is severely lacking in AA, which is in my opinion the only use case for these AA's.
You make some very valid points but I feel you are greatly underestimating how much boosting heal aa's can assist. You are correct in that you can add more spam heal/ healers to compensate for the DPS spikes. I could counter with, what is the point of adding more "healers", when you could just boost the spam healing of a smaller number of them and achieve the same result as adding more. In the group game, what if the group geared warrior has a merc for a healer, do you really not believe a boost to the merc heals, is going to greatly help them out?
it is rather pitiful that this thread gets no attention from the Dev's or evn Presto, yet they are all over the thread about the nerfs coming this month later. It is typical just ignore the Warrior class. Maybe they will all go away.
Did you really expect otherwise? Whatever else the new round of changes and nerfs do, it will ensure that warrior concerns get drowned out and ignored yet again. This isn't new. This is pretty much SOP for SOE with regards to warrior problems. NTtB and the nerf to it are new; the issues that NTtB appeared to be a first step towards resolving (that in consequence made the nerf such an insult to warriors) are years old, as is the absolute lack of comment or remedy from SOE. I note again that warrior's current utter inferiority in 90%-95% of the game's content, not just to knights but even to mage pets, has never even been actually acknowledged as a problem by the devs, let alone substantively addressed. I personally find the new warrior AA thread to be nearly pointless, almost a farce. Going by recent example, the best we can expect to get is some routine extensions to existing lines, a couple of useless AA that don't stack with basic buffs from other classes we always have on just to function, and maybe something useful that improved our gameplay for just long enough to get used to being slightly less before it gets nerfed back to the status quo of near-uselessness.
Piestro indicated in the February nerf thread that the belief that mage pets tank better than tank classes to be a myth, and that if a pet lasts longer tanking, it's an issue with the healing...
Which just goes to show the SOE devs are clueless as to the difference between theory and practice, because every tank with any direct experience on this point has seen the difference. Of course it's an issue with the healing! The pets have a completely uniform damage intake curve that never changes and is utterly predictable. That translates to very easy to heal, which translates to tanking better. Sure, I tank better while my discs are up - but then eventually my discs drop, my healing profile changes, and suddenly a DPS spike kills me because the healers aren't ready for it, be they merc or player. Upshot, I die and the pet doesn't, and the pet finishes the fight where the actual player tank does not. Almost every one of us has seen this directly. This makes pets more reliable tanks. Warriors know this, knights know this, mages know this. Yet because the raw database stats don't immediately show the emergent behaviour clearly, the devs don't believe it exists. They apparently need some remedial training on emergent properties of complex systems.
how this is being handled is quite poor. You would think that the devs have tools that they could just graph out and look at the damage distribution... and maybe share this to justify there nurfs... What we get is a bunch of devs/people who only know there class, and very little about others and no cohesive way to compare.
been reading the feb nerf thread and also saw where piestro said mages pet don't tank better than other tanks its a healing issue ... shows they have no clue whats going on
There are plenty of people that know every class in the game. Unfortunately, voicing an opinion about any other class apart from "your main" (if there is such a concept) is disregarded as some noob talking. Imagine what the opinion of most devs is worth then as most of them haven't even played this game for 15 years, let alone play it as much as some of the more vocal people here. There are plenty of good ways to compare these classes, but I'm here to relax and have fun, not do the devs job for them. It would likely be completely ignored anyway, as quite a few obvious issues have been in the past (even with good parses to back them up). Given the current state of affairs for Warriors, the recent nerf, opinions voiced by devs in the past and the lackluster communication, I wouldn't get my hopes up for any kind of fix. Maybe a band-aid and another long reuse ability that makes no difference left or right.
Nerfing the one thing that actually put warriors in line with other tank classes has me seriously considering letting my warrior account go silver. I could finally effectively tank a few things as a non-raid geared tank but now the fight had better be less than 3 minutes or I am just praying that a heal lands.
Did knights like it during GoD when SOE said go roll a Warrior? Have knights gotten Warrior class defining defensive disciplines and abilities that will not be (but were) shared? Self-healing was not effective mitigation by another means back then. Mitigation can not fully duplicate the benefits of self-healing 2 of the 3 classes that tank and even Rangers (the thrird Warrior based hybrid) provides now. Seriously don't you understand why SK's are arguing they should sitll get procs on ripostes from the mob they have targeted? They are well aware that close to Warrior permanent mitigation plus fairly close to Warrior burst mitigation plus combat self-healing equals advantage. They out perform us on many mobs that don't outright kill all of us when defensive disciplines drop.
funny SK just posted about the repost thing and not getting healing for it saying they may as well make SK into warriors.. as seen as a major down grade to the class
I found the "we gave up so much because of our epic" thing especially amusing. What's an epic - a popor excuse for a letter opener like ours? Dear SOE I only rolled a knight so I could sell PLing!! Non-raid Warriors especially were saddled with tank parity, but only on the mobs we were supposed to be unmatched surviving against. Not fast experience content. One way parity. Hey, if my class was advantaged for the last 2-3 years I'd want to keep it that way too.
Sony gave them a reason for the nerf, they were able to counter-propose solutions, and most likely they will come up with something that works for the majority of SKs. We are given no real explanation, nothing which could allow us to counter-propose, so we will probably end up getting nothing. The "Because I said so" argument just reminds me of my mother when her reasoning couldn't hold weight.
