Why should pure melee outdamage others?

Last I checked Rest's reuse is 1:30, it would be up fast if you died unless you got an instant rez. And paragon isn't really fast mana, mod rods are an option but most high mana users maybe get 10% or less from it mana wise.

death bloom harvest canni + the mod rod ...... and endurance has very little bearing on melee with rezz effects.. u just don't swing enough to do damage.. where a caster can cast at same speed with no penalty. it's not even an argument really. to many ways to get mana back versus very few endurance and the penalty for melee is far more severe in terms of being able to deal damage.

Add all those things together since they are all available options, do not forget cleric qm. If you're a solid dps' I don't know a cleric that wouldn't qm a good dps'er. Rest is the only available option for melee and any dps discs are wasted if under res effects due to not having full hit speed.

Im speaking from a hybrids pov, i've never personally played a pure caster, however wizards might be the only classes getting a QM due to their dps increase this expansion.

haha I can spot ranger-envy a mile away ; )

Well I haven't had a ranger beat me on a parse in a very long time... but they DO have some nice toys I don't have, so yeah maybe

Different event mechanics favor different tactics in killing mobs? Are you guys serious?

DS on mobs, belly caster mobs, etc. This conversation is crazy.

Heck IMO, every mob should be undead!

Aye, not to mention every dps group doesn't run 2 shamans for back to back 2.0 on 3min+ fights to see melees top the parses

Well the ADPS issue is, EQ does not enhance casters because code limits it. If we really had everything melee had it would be ridiculous (overhaste, triple cast ect). That is not a Casters fault that we can not be enhanced by ADPS anywhere near a melee can. Our DPS should not suffer either. SOE should make it so melee classes are less reliant on it also, however IMHO with lesser abilities then we already have (say 75% of a RF, sham epic, bard epic ect). Doesn't remove the need for sham/bard/BL but throws a bone to melee classes.

Another thing that should be removed is rezz effects. There shouldn't be a 3min slow on everyone who gets rezzed, its ridiculous. If you remove that I think things are pretty well fair. I personally stand in melee range on just about every fight because my DPS suffers if I do not. If you melee are upset that you need to do this I will gladly take your tanking abilities and put them to good use.

The issue is Melee are designed to stand up there, you get benefits that casters do not to stand up there. Now throw in a Belly casting mob (which is quite frequent in RoF/SoF), we don't all of a sudden gain tanking abilities because a mob forces us to cast in ramp range. Its as simple as that, both sides have issues. One side is not so far ahead in those areas that they have a justified case to be further behind then the other.

Some pure melee and casters should be even, but pure melee should be over hybrids.

1. Rogues and Berserkers (pure melee, crappy survivability)
2. Monks (trades some dps for little more survivability)
3. Rangers and Beastlords (hybrids, half dps, half utility)
4. Warriors (pure melee, awesome survivability)
5. Knights and Bards ( hybrids, awesome survivability or utility)

Always thought warrior should be used as a baseline(100%) to DPS. Percentages are an example.
Warrior = 100% dps
Knights and Bards = 90% dps
Rogues and Berserkers = 120% dps
Rangers and Beastlords = 110% dps
Monks = 115% dps

Then you could do one for casters, then combine them both into one DPS outline.

Waiting for an assist is a problem faced by all, not just casters. Yes, you have large nukes - I have heavy hits. My tanks don't lose aggro, neither should yours.

Auto attack with no endurance is just that - auto attack with no endurance. I get no benefit from my abilities - no stun kick, no synergy (which boosts all of my kicks), no cloud of fists, no drunken monkey, no discs. If I go in to the fight with auto attack on, I can't use respite to get my endurance back unless I drop aggro. Easy enough for a monk, not so easy for other classes. Casters can use mod rods / canni / death bloom / etc. at any point.

LoS issues - agreed, that does come up. I know in the Sep2 raid that was a large issue for casters. However, in most raids, the terrain is flat and there is very little geometry to get in your way. You can still cast with your back turned to the mob. You can still switch targets without having to physically find them.

There are plenty of reasons proving the advantage casters have. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they're not existant.

Yes, we can hit the mob right away. But, as from above, most of my abilities run off of endurance, which cannot be replenished during a fight.

Yes, we have to wait for the DS to be removed. Yes, you have to wait for a mob to be debuffed. However, casting on a mob which hasn't been debuffed doesn't kill you. Hitting a mob with a DS at full speed kills me.

As for dropping a large nuke - we have large hits as well. If my tank doesn't lose aggro when I hit the mob for 315K x2 + 100K instantly, he shouldn't be losing it against your nukes. We all have to wait for aggro control.

Warriors should out dps Knights (the original thread was started by a SK in response to comments in the Tank forum pointing out yes Warrior DPS should be greater than SK)

Why: Knights can solo way better. Knights have utility from FD to Heals.

Warrior > 95% SK > Paladin

Zerkerers > Wizards 95%

Why: Wizards can solo way better. Wizards have utility from Ports, to Snares,

Monk > Necro 95% in sustained longer fights

Why: Necro can solo way better. Necros can kill named/xp faster

Rogues/Rangers/Magicians should all be similiar in both Burst/Sustained

Why: All have similiar Solo Power (Ranger/Rogue faster light blues, Magician beating Reds)
All have some utility (Rogues gained huge utility with addition of Collection Tasks)

All melee (including hybrid) need too much ADPS. Yes casters need Enc/Bards but Casters get a smaller percentage of their power from ADPS.

Raid DPS superiority should come as a trade off from Solo / Group Utility.

Rogues dont have similar solo power to mages or rangers not by a long shot actually once zerkers get decap then zerkers>rogues for solo as well.

Actually far greater percentage of Max AA rogues running around than Rangers.
Both out XP mages (well maybe not but far more Max AA percentage wise than mages)

I forgot Decap got fixed. Maybe Zerker = Wizards

For me, Raid Rankings should be tied inversely to group and solo tradeoffs.

What do max aa's have to do with the ability to solo, nothing.

However with that said Mages>>>Rogues for absolute solo ability no ands ifs or buts about it, Mages can solo much harder content (it doesn't have to be reds it can be dark blues) and run circles around rogues and rangers and zerkers for that matter. It's only on instakill mobs that zerker/ranger/rogue can attempt to catch up and they need better gear and aa then said mage.

With that said it is easier for hybrids and casters to solo over pures (zerkers/rogues/warriors.)

No raid DPS superiority should come as a trade off for ADPS, those who give others benefit should lose some of their personal DPS.

Pallys can give reduced agro so they shouldn't be top tank, SK's can give more hate so they shouldn't be top tank either, which should make warrior top dog.

Druids & Shaman can give much more ADPS than a cleric can so a cleric should out heal both.

Tbh this conversation happens about every year and the top classes are always changing, zerkers and rogues were beating wizzies, now wizzies finally get a chance to be good and people whine, rangers were even top dps for awhile, now we suck. Monks dps sucked for awhile, now they got a pretty good improvement in SoF.

Ability to solo is a function of AA percentages. If you get 20 AAs out of 8000 in a lessons you have done 1/400th of your char. If you can get 25AAs out of 12000 your own getting done 1/480th of your char.

Mages solo powerful content better. Rogues/Rangers currently out xp them.

Killing light blues and green con mobs? If a mage walked into those same zones they'd get the same xp at just under the same rate, put a wizard on those same mobs they'd be nuking most with 1 or 2 casts, but honestly why would any of those classes waste their time unless that was the only content they could effectively solo... Compare solo-ability for current content and it's not even close, what one of those classes can make on a dark blue mob vs mage/necro and it's no where near even.

In case you forgot, HS/Assassination/Decap didn't get upgrades, next 5 lvls they will warrant 0 xp, currently the xp rate is a joke using those outdated abilities. Can't really compare aa's, some people don't upgrade their magelo profile and you can't really hold it against those who might... Maybe if there was a way to check the hunter ach and who did what solo would make for a better comparison.

I find it funny how 98% of the conversation has to deal with raiding as if it was the only aspect of the game. Eq once balanced end game power with one of the factors being the ease to lvl a character also by the number of people who play said classes. I.e. if a class was difficult to lvl then generally there were less of them and then would hold a power advantage end game. For example if zerkers had an over representation in population amongst melee dps then they would get a slight disadvantage to discourage overpopulation. Eq once did this as do many game but i do not claim that to be anything more then something to consider.

Go go charmander and flame away.