I am not sure if you find that it is a player tank's solemn duty to do what it takes to get to this profound tipping point where they best a merc and that nothing is wrong with the status quo as opposed to viewing the issue as being something that needs developer intervention. Many recognize, myself included, that player tank classes require a bit more focus and commitment. No more needs to be said there. The issue is that player tanks should not be spending the majority of their development time in an uncompetitive position when matched up with a merc at equal level. I am not saying anything about gearing since bad gearing will still put a player tank at a disadvantage over a merc tank. Still at equal lvl, a player tank and merc tank's innate defensive skills should be equal. A player tank should at least not have to go through great pains to just be equal with a merc. People making groups are going to go the path of least resistance, and if that means selecting a merc, well that is double jeopardy for a player tank. Not only did they get usurped by an AI, the slot in the group that enables the character development time to improve has been taken up by something that doesn't even need character development time. Player tanks do not learn how to tank well playing second fiddle to a merc, eking out dps just to feel they have a reason to be in the group when other group members would just assume boot the feeble player tank and get a wizard instead. As for the mage and warrior comparison, maybe the context is wrong but the bottom line is this: The mage is going to produce dps. It might not be optimal dps but it is going to be dps. Meanwhile the warrior is going to be a corpse. This is assuming the controlled restraints of equal lvl, AA count and entry tier gear for that current expansion.
That's about the most eloquently I've seen this stated. This really begins at level 1. Player tanks aren't competitive with J1mercs until around level 80, where we receive a lovely stat bump from rapid inflation of attuneable gear. Unfortunately this is around the time most players get J5 mercs. At that point, it's back seat again unless you are max group geared or recently raid geared. This is especially penalizing to Warriors since our ability to solo is atrocious, while Pal/SK remain two of the better solo classes. This junk really needs to stop. I think I'm going to start reporting posts that do this, it's really a personal attack and a silly one on top of that. 0 amount of player skill makes a difference when a mob gets a back to back high rounds plus spell hit and floors you between heals, yet the merc survives because they have 20% more HP.
Something should really be done to help the group tanks both catch up to and then stay ahead of mercs in the group game. Otherwise, as the game progresses, merc tanks will be pretty much the only option for many (outside of boxes).
More WAR PAL SHD only gear and add in a second type 7 and type 8 aug slot for group and raid gear. With the additional ac at lower levels and ac+heroics at higher levels, you'd see some real separation between tanks and non-tanks without just giving it away.
Warriors just need to get their grubby little hands on of these http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=109771
What one piece of gear is the biggest power gain for tanks? Answer : Shields It's time for group shield AC to come into this century. Just look at the best group obtainable shield. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=108773 210 AC... seriously? I made the point in another thread that handing out a SS raid pet focus on group gear is ok but keeping shield AC for tanks in the stone ages is ok? Ok throw an AC aug in it, the best group obtainable secondary shield AC that I know of (may be a new one with rof for secondary not sure) is the DSH legacy event for 38 ac. Look at shields from SoD or UF, that's going back YEARS and the ac is still better. I'm not saying go crazy and give VoA SS raid shields to the group game but how about even just UF? I know two people that still carry their Cooling Chamber shield around because the AC is still better. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=87902
Definitely see what your saying on the group content Shield AC... But, on the flipside, current Raid shields are in the 260-265AC range. There really hasn't been a substantial jump over the VoA raid shields. Personally my SK uses a shield with a base AC of 260, with the 40AC aug from last years anniversary raid. Think the best VoA raid shield was 255AC IIRC? So honestly 210AC on group gear isn't too bad. If any tank needs any kind of overhauling, it's warriors... Upgrades to commanding voice are long over due, and basic add ons to existing lines. Really not sure where the warrior community stands on getting new stuff/upgrades.
CV overwrites Myrmidon's Skill clicks and has timer conflicts with Flash of Anger. Any upgrade to CV needs to address these problems on top of having a significantly longer duration. Frankly I don't see these happening so I'd prefer they just leave CV alone and let MS clicks eventually take its place. Upgrades/Add ons - Field Guardian needs it's duration doubled, conflicts with FoA fixed and to provide additional benefit, like a large bonus to block. Steadfast Defense needs something else too. I proposed 'Skill damage -XXXX' mitigation effect such that SD beats FinalStand on trash and the opposite occurs on named. AA-Hastened Scowl needs 3 more ranks. While I like the idea of 'New stuff' it has to be done right. Copies of Knight abilities aren't going to work, Warrior versions need to be significantly more powerful because we lack combat self-healing.
The problem is it really is that bad when you do the math. Shield AC is at least Twice as valuable as Normal AC. Maybe more. Because of the way AC and Soft Caps work if you assume a Tank is getting Half Soft Cap value that Double Shields Value T2 Raid Arms 242 AC Group T2 Arms 181 AC == 61 AC Difference T2 Raid Shield 260 AC 210 AC T2 Group Shield === 50 AC difference, but doubled at minimum so 100 AC difference.
And, dun, dun, dun, dun, dunnnnnn............................................. The group content is tuned for that lower value. Sing that like it's leading up to something, I'm not sure how to put that catchy little tune into words. What people are saying is either "I want more!" Just because they want more. Or they are saying "The content is too hard!" Mercs and pets being what they are is a different issue that doesn't really connect in with this. Well it does, but you start to make it really complicated when you want to look at them and half the ideas here would break all balance simply to overpower a few tanks for the content in order to make them feel better. If a tank tanks it, if a pet tanks it, if a merc tanks it, and they all do fine why does it matter if one is betterer at it? Yes I know that's not a word, I just think the argument is so silly it doesn't deserve proper English.
Tanks wanting to be on a higher playing field as a merc for 400 plat an hour or some guy's pet is understandable. And it is very possible to do, that is tank better, even if they do automatically get more HPs/mitigation than we do... Player tanks can do crazy things like, position a mob, leash tank a bit if it gets too nasty, use good disc combos, etceteras. It annoys me to see a bloody pet or merc w/ more HP than I have, but in no way do I see it as having a greater tanking ability than I have. Same goes for dps merc types, they can do a good job for a stand in, but don't even come remotely close to having a DPS that knows what they doing around. In fact, a single DPS that knows what they are doing can outdo 2-3 rog DPS mercs on burn. I think the main complaint here is that tanks tools seem to be getting a bit rusty for the job at hand, could use some polishing. This I agree with.
On the note again of pets... I might be a bit rusty on mages, since I used to play one. I don't think pets have more HP you (or most tanks for that matter).. But they do have this Aegis of kildrukan line that absorb X number of hits, which is fine and dandy for them. Now what Kurayami said again goes back on player ability/skill and such for mob positioning and all that good stuff. All that makes a difference. In some situations, sure a pet might make for a better tank, but if your talking about grouping, that group has to be based around a pet tank. As I said in a previous post, your not going to have melee DPS in that group unless its sitting back throwing stuff? I always did find it funny to watch like a rogue run in and get smashed when someone is pet tanking. And Dre, i was just using CV as a simple example since it was the first thing that kind of came to mind. Any tuning to tanking is always going to result in harder hitting mobs and all that good stuff.
Apply the same to DPS. If the mob dies why does it matter if a monk did less than a ranger by a lot or a little. I'm sure raiders especially will undrestand that as long as the mob dies their DPS doesn't matter especially for rankings..oh wait it does at least to them. For tanks it's a matter of needing healers too. If a merc can do it with 1 healer but it takes a tank to do it with 2 ..mob still ends up dead but you see where I'm going with this. The tank will need better gear which leads back to the point of this thread.
Yea, probably right there about mobs hitting harder if we get more, Cisco. I think T3 will help the complaints about tanking in T1/T2, a LITTLE. However this will only open up brand new complaints about being unable to tank in T3 because they want to go directly from T2 VoA to T3 RoF or something like that. I can't say I blame devs for ignoring these discussions if this is how they always go. Should be thanking the devs for a challenge.... Am I the only one who is happy to think I might be tanking mobs that make me pull out every trick I have to hopefully withstand them? I had a rude awakening last week when I tried to molo a named in beasts domain. Keep in mind I had been gone for 16 months at this point. I just did my usual thing, went more for the fast kill then the endurance route, ended up feigning w/ the named at 10 % or less. Went back in again, with a much better strategy in place, spaced my discs out and such in ways that some would refresh during the fight, put merc on balanced from the start, actually used my willsapper, etceteras. Namer went down w/ a fair amount of difficulty, but went much better that time. Boy was I surprised at how easy T1 RoF namers were after that ordeal, lol. Hoping to see more of the same in T3 RoF, I actually enjoy having my abilities challenged as I work towards better gear/augs. Yall just in too much of a hurry....
Pets do have higher hp. They also have better passive mitigation vs. single targets, and ignore a couple of abilities - the main ones being mez, which hits the pet owner rather than the pet, and call out abilities, which again hit the pet owner instead of the pet - that players do not. Their main disadvantages are: No active skills => no self healing / group healing, no 'super tank' cooldowns, no group buffs, no mob debuffs, no emergency tools except for passive enrage which doesn't do jack, no ability to control aggro beyond hitting the mob, no pulling abilities, no AoE aggro Terrible positioning mechanics => pets are terrible at positioning even with Companion Relocation; they disallow the use of melees and pets with higher DPS; they disallow the use of melee mercs and off tanks; Punishing mechanics => their mitigation is punished by multiple mobs hitting them, they are punished by single target rampage, mob mechanics that pull group members to them, mob mechanics that make mobs jump to players, mob mechanics that require belly casting, mob mechanics that require the tank to kite, tight spaces, and mem blur mechanics In return, pets only require a combination of AAs, spells, and 1 gear slot to be at their optimal effectiveness. I see pets as a situational tool that allows for flexibility in EQ group make up. It introduces a different style of play that is valuable to keep around for the sake of maintaining variety. Pet tanking isn't a fundamentally better option - there are mobs that greatly punish pet tanking, and which require the use of a merc/player tank in their stead. At the same time, there are mobs that are easier to pet tank, though there's never a mob that is untankable by player tanks in the group game. Overall I think pets and mercs are where they ought to be with content. I do not think tanks are where they ought to be with content because of the gear up difficulty.
When tanks are geared they are perfectly fine though. So any solution would need to front load tanks and then nerf them so to speak when they are geared and augged. Otherwise you will have SOE beefing up grp content to adjust to any improvements tanks get. To me that is the biggest issue with this debate. Mercs and pets have nothing to do in this conversation. Tanks being bad because of the gear/AA curve is high is an issue with the classes, nothing else.
Now that I'm 100 and recently just maxed all defensive AAs (ALL OF THEM) my survival rate has gone up quite a bit to one-on-one trash mobs. However, I still die to random spike damage, and mobs that dual-wield can still kill me easily if I don't use disciplines. The number one thing that makes me angry is if my invis fades somewhere and three mobs attack me at once, I have no chance to live. I'll die faster than my fade can go off and my merc will cast rez on me in the middle of the same mobs that beat me down (gee, thanks buddy). I mean, when hits the fan in a group, there's a slim chance the tank can live long enough for others in the group to get mobs under control. It's just not right. Also, I noticed all those AAs I put into stun resistance is being ignored by the basilisks in Chapterhouse. A ten second stun lands on me 80% of the time (The other 20% is simply resisting the stone stare), and if I aggro anything more than just the basilisk I'm helpless and die. That's BS. lol I do have some points to make, though: Most tasks and even most partisan tasks in RoF are doable by tanks with healer merc. It's agonizingly slow and the death rate is incredibly high compared to non-melee classes who can plow through the content, but it is doable. I got through all of Chapterhouse mostly by myself, racking up dozens of deaths to show for it. Chapterhouse is a good reason why I understand pet classes need strong pets, and honestly, comparing pets to tanks is apples to oranges. Mercs are different when comparing to players, as they're supposed to imitate them in stats and use.
This happens a lot. The devs come out with a skill or AA to bypass something in the game that most people hate, then just come up with a new version with a new name to bypass it.
And the only players heavily affected by this are the ones who hold the mob's attention most. Doesn't take more than a moment to know that it's the tanks. Sinestra, you're so cute :3
