Not to derail the thread, but I hate gate collapsing mechanic. I think that didnt get put in until after they gave AAs to prevent fizzles and increase channeling through stuns. A no fail gate and then they put in gate collapse. Which is really a pain if all you keep loaded is the aa gate...
Group warriors definitely need help, and I support that for sure. Merc tanks are ludicrously powerful vs group-geared wars.
Kinda doubt there will be much traction as far as bringing up any changes without dropping the "group" pretense and just going with "warrior" or just "tank". It is still supposed to be one game.
I really like the idea of vendor AC augs. Let's say... 25 AC, no other stats and not lore Surely with all the candy land loot in RoF T1, all slots filled with 25 AC augs, and appropriate AA, warriors can be more than adequate for current content? This way warriors can do their job and strive to get T2 gear and the 35+ AC augs to really dominate content. Just my .02
Seems like the easiest fix would be to put in a native base stat boost to HP and/or AC for the tank classes, based on level. I totally agree it's a significant difference in gearing/aa'ing up a tank over a dmg/heal class, and in other mmos they have abilities around the tank classes to make that less of an issue plus there are HUGE differences in tank HP vs casters where eq was left behind in this thinking (some games tanks are 2-3x the hp of casters) It's really not wanting too much to get something like. AC Boost per level = level/4 HP Boost per level = level*4 at level 50 you gain 13ac 200hp at level 80 you would get 20AC native and 320HP at 100 it would cap out at 25ac and 400hp It has to be approximatly this much to make a noticable difference in tanking in EQ, sure you could cut it down to a much lower per level gain that would only be noticable in parses, but this is about the reasonable number for it to be a noticable difference in tanking ability without trivalizing the content. Even the cumulative numbers at level 100 are ~1200ac and ~20k hp, which is about where it realistically needs to end up and would put players on par with merc and pet hp levels.
Any change needs to be considered for everyone, if tanks get an innate boost then the gains have to be removed from their gear. It's very obvious how much better a plate tank takes a hit than a chain, leather or cloth class. To further widen the gap means that the tuning point goes up and that creates all sorts of problems such as in raids where if a raid boss smacks a non-defensive tank, or anyone else, they are almost assuredly going to die.
Raid warriors blow away merc tanks though. That's kinda the problem. The warrior class is kinda two classes in one. Raid warrior. Group warrior. With one being far more powerful than the other vs the mercenary.
I'm curious how it's the player. No matter what gear you wear, no matter how many AA you have, a merc tank is going to blow you away if you are a warrior until you reach current content, and full current group content gear at worst. The more raid gear, the better, if you want to be a more clear choice than a merc tank. Merc tanks are pretty crazy. Make a level 1 un-twinked toon, and use a merc tank to bulldoze content, and see for yourself. Then try the same thing boxing an un-twinked level 1 warrior, and see how fast and easy you level up in comparison.
If you want to treat it as two different classes and two different games, than you can fix the problem with just boosting gearing for group tanks. Its doubtful the game devs would see it in that light however and the brown end for boosting group tanks is they will boost the difficulty of group content as well as the mercs. It is a zero sum equation. Also, gear is controlled by players and will still require the same time to obtain as if nothing were changed at all. If the class templates themselves are massively weak, rattle-canning the gearing/AA attainment treadmill a different color is not going to make it move any faster. Group warriors have to be made better by design from the beginning to compete with mercs. Otherwise, they are still stuck in the backseat with a merc tanking while they go off and obtain this better gear and get those same AA's. The only way to do that is to give them AA's built in they would otherwise have to pay for. That would still keep things balanced and keep it to just one game.
The problem is the same in the raid game, tanks need lot of gearing before they can become useful, and even then outside of defensive the gain isn't big enough vs other classes.
Or the devs could just acknowledge it and make sure future raid don't need an army of healer to be won.
And yet the raid warrior barely pulls its weight in groups. It feels like playing a level 95 in a group of all level 100 toons. As for the "blows away" part, hardly. Slightly better would be more accurate. At 95 the merc tank did absolutely fine against T4 nameds -- my raid geared warrior did slightly better (less spikey). No idea how that will be at level 100, but considering the lackluster increase in stats on new raid gear and the huge boost mercs received again, I think it will be about equal now.
Lol This coming from the guy who repeatedly bitched and moaned on beta that raids needed to be harder and then more hard and then more AEs and then bosses needed to hit harder. Just stop yourself
I find a raid geared warrior is far easier to heal than the tank merc vs a named because the real warrior will have final stand up, the tank merc will of blown it. Heck if my merc tank gets 3 trash mobs in breeding grounds i'm going to die, if my brothers warrior is there it's going to be fine no sweat.
Unless Raid tanks and Group tanks also have two different AA skill trees, you might want to go back and read what was posted. I am not suggesting any doctored up group gear or anything that implies there needs to be further emphasis on the rift between group players and those that raid. The only thing suggested was to grant CA/CS, planar power, natural durability, armor of wisdom and any other class defining innate defensive AA's as part of the player plate armor waering tank baseline templates. Both raid tanks and group tanks will buy those AA's, correct?I am not suggesting anything that is going to change the dynamic of what raid tanks do or group tanks. More like taking something already in the game and giving it to tanks with no investment of time other than to reach the level where it would otherwise be obtained. It would shave weeks/months off of the time it takes to get a player tank viable. The goal here is to give group tanks a level playing field with mercs sooner and an edge over them that much sooner still so as to be more desirable in groups. I am still an advocate of Yes, you still need to learn your player triggered skills/non class defining AA and yes, you still need to camp AC augs and yes you still need to get your armor/non vis the same way you do now. Player tanks don't need a complete overhaul. They just need a head start.
Levels 1-65 or 70; where it is 100% intended yeah merc tanks are more powerful than any class at all. That is part of the way to help speed up the leveling of players to get them to where all the other people are. I'm sorry though but level 70-90 is not current content; and merc tanks in this level range don't "blow away" any half way decent tank, let alone a warrior; they are at best even with a half way decent tank; and I am talking about group geared tanks; raid geared tanks are always better than a merc tank. Maybe here on Tunare we just have more competent tanks than elsewhere. It is the player because the player actually can do things while tanking which can blow merc tanks out of the water.
Rightfully so, most of them are a walkover,if it was for guys like you raid would be 1 grpable lol. Raid tuning and tank being worthless outside of def have nothing to do with each other, but please, keep moaning because you re stuck on whatever raid.
I read about 7 pages here. I think I got the gist of it all, but I may have missed something. I see a lot of points being made. Some good stuff about how much decent healers/DPS can help a tank get by, and some good counterpoints about how long it takes a tank to get to where they need to be. I'll address the counterpoint first. I think that SOE has done a great job lately in terms of mitigating the time it takes to become competent by doing things like accelerated AA gains up through 4,000, gear dropping off random trash in RoF (even if you can't kill the trash, you can buy the gear), and a plethora of tanking disciplines that can take the place of what used to be essential AA in a pinch. Maybe it's not where it needs to be - but the issue hasn't gone unnoticed and it's a lot better than it was. It can't happen overnight or the game would break. I think patience is key here. As for good healing/DPS making up for mediocre tanking - I agree wholeheartedly, and will provide an example as to why. First though, I *am* raid geared, and most of the time I group with people that are raid geared. I'm not end-game, I haven't seen RoF T2 raids yet, and have not completed VoA yet either (or even raided Sep). However, my gear is better than what a group geared tank would wear. Same with my DPSers. Now. Since Underfoot, I have been able to tank every endzone named of every group game, and about 80% of the missions, without a healer. No merc, no druid, no cleric, no shaman. I am a paladin - so I do use my own heals. This isn't me going on a parade about how awesome I am - I absolutely would have no chance of doing this without the DPS to back me up. I certainly can't solo them. Having enough DPS means less chances for mobs to get good rounds in, fewer AEs for me to try and heal through, and less chance that my best discs wear off. Heading off the inevitable "you have raid gear you can't talk about group tanks" argument - I'm not saying that a group geared tank should be able to do this. I'm not even sure a raid geared tank should be able to do this. All I'm saying is that I can specifically because of a higher DPS number. It is very noticeable when a good tank carries a group. It is less noticeable, but just as possible, for good DPS to do the same thing - even with a mediocre tank. Maybe I'm not on to anything here, but I think the next time a tank has trouble, find out if their Final Stand/Mantle disc wore off. If it did, the group is probably killing too slow. Then check if the point it faded is the same point at which the tank died. Chances are that it is. In summary - I think the devs are aware that it takes a while for tanks (and really, everyone else) to get to where they need to be. And this is being worked on, continuously, expansion after expansion. Furthermore, the burden can't always lie on the tank. Sweeping changes are not necessary. Slow, gradual ones will help; in the meantime, it is just as important to check the quality of DPSers and healers as it is the tank.
