Making Progression Not Required On Release Then REQUIRING It?

Do you understand that casuals can try and enjoy more RoS progression if EoK progression is not required? If you think group geared players should do progression as much as possible, there is no reason to support this tedious and bad design change.

Requiring previous progression doesn't change the amount of contents, just like requiring previous raid armor doesn't increase the number of raids.

Why would they enjoy RoS progression without EoK progression. TBM dint had any thing to block you from doing EoK progression thus some dint do it for what reason? EoK had some Kar'Zok in Kor'sha Lab with also a mission and that dint stop the casuals from playing in EoK. Whats the problem?

People in the past: Say, can we make old content relevant and desirable to keep playing?
DBG: Hrm, maybe the players are on to something here. Let's make EoK relevant to RoS.
People now: OMG! DBG is forcing us to play old content now!

Look, in the time that this thread has existed, a good portion of our guild has completed EoK progression.

First, EoK progression IS NOT NEEDED to enjoy most of the content in RoS. As some people have pointed out: only one zone and RoS progression missions have Kar'Zok of any numerical value to worry about (and if you didn't do EoK progression, what makes us think you are going to get in a hurry to do RoS progression?); you can fight Kar'Zok without Essence of the Dragon I, it just makes fighting them much easier to not have to worry about their effects; don't want to camp Selrach's? Support your local crafters, and get armor that is actually on par with RoS G1-G2 armor.

DBG has given you other options. The notion that the Norrathian sky is falling is just getting way out of hand. No one is forcing you to do anything to enjoy the new content. You wanted old content relevance for so long, now that you have it, you are throwing a tantrum. THAT doesn't make sense.

Why would they not enjoy RoS progression without EoK progression?
TBM progression may be more interesting and rewarding than TDS for some players as Dicho progression. RoS progression may be more interesting and rewarding than EoK for some players as VP access.

We always have been able to choose which one we do first. Can you find any reason that requiring previous expansion progression/armor is better than not?

Also, if you don't have problem, do you like the idea that the next expansion after RoS requires RoS armor?

Pretty sure people have offered up plenty of explanations towards this. I'm sure you'd be able to find one reason within these 11 pages. Or any of the other 100 pages in the dozen or so threads discussing it.

How about lore? I want to know what happens to Atrebe. I want to know what happens to the other faction of Sarnaks after the schism. I want to know why Talendor is in EoK. Who are those sarnak generals in the Lceanium raid? Why did they leave at the start?

It follows reason that the Kar`Zok are just as powerful as they were before. They wouldn't suddenly lose their power in one expansion to the next. And the effort involved with being able to subdue their power needs to be acknowledged. How many hours were spent grinding it out with TBM / EoK gear, instead of EoK / RoS gear? Each expansion shouldn't be a reset of the previous. Each expansion should grow from the previous. You don't start out at level 1 every time there's a new increase. You don't have to start an entirely new AA line when there's an improvement. Everything just gets tacked on. And now it's happening with gear / progression.

Reboots are terrible. Carry on the story. I don't need another origin story of Spiderman every few years. I know how he got his powers. I know his uncle died (sorry, spoilers). I want to see other villains, other battles. Establishing that which has been established for the sake of people who haven't spent time watching the original or reading the comics is a waste of time.

If this does happen, you'll have ample warning time - consider Dec 12 your start warning date that the next expansion will require RoS being complete. A full 12 months to complete RoS and collect the gear required for the next. If you're done RoS and it's required, you win. If you're done RoS and it's not required, you win. However, I think they'll base their decision on data. They know exactly how many people have completed EotD1/2. They know exactly how many people have T1/T2/Raid gear. They'll be able to see our progress in a much cleaner way than the current EGL system run by a player. As accurate as that is, I'm certain the devs don't bother viewing it.

TDS was pretty bad for me and my friends. It was super disappointing to have the majority of zones locked behind progression. It sucked a lot to have people log on who couldnt come join you in the middle of a mission because they couldn't zone in. TBM was great everything was available. So was EOK. When people got online it was a simple invite and then fun started for everyone.

Lore? Who would pay for lore? Is it more important than that returning players will be burden in any fight with Kar`Zok? People would pay when they enjoy contents, not when they can do little for their friends. As I have already said, group players will get more Hero's AA when previous expansion is not required. Please show me any reason that this is better design.

Then, I have to ask you the following question. If ALL raid armor requires previous expansion raid armor, are you happy? Is it better game design?

The question you should ask is this:

If you can't beat previous content raid, what makes you think you can march in and beat current raid?

Point of having previous raid loot is so you have a good starting point at accessing and beating current raid content and upgrading that previous raid gear. If you can't beat previous raid stuff, why are you even worried about hitting up content/gear you won't see anyway?

One of the things that makes this xpac different is that RoS group 2 gear isn't going to be on par with EoK Raid gear, unlike Selrach vs TBM is pretty on par. So, EoK Raid gear is not going to be shed like old snake skin to get RoS group 2 gear and tossed in the tribute vendor. The only viable upgrade for EoK raid is going to be RoS raid.

Wait Spiderman's uncle is dead?!?!? You have to give a significantly larger spoiler alert before you share something like that Thrillho!!!

Or are you just making that up? Probably so. I mean that sounds as ludicrous as saying Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa are related or something...

EoK raid armor is required to make RoS raid armor. RoS+1 (expansion) raid armor requires RoS raid armor. RoS+2 armor requires RoS+1 armor. RoS+3 amor reqires RoS+2 armor. RoS+4 armor requires RoS+3 armor. This is my question.

So I will ask you again. Is this better game design?

How many times in the past have two expansions been this tightly connected? I mean it's called Ring of Scale, but it's basically Empires of Kunark Part 2. Since they are so tightly woven I think it makes sense to have the progression be required. That doesn't mean I want every expansion to do that going forward, but it wouldn't be bad to have it happen where it makes sense thematically.

The only other pair of expansions that were related and sequential that I can think of were VoA and RoF. I've been all over VoA but haven't really done much in RoF so I can't say for sure how connected they are.

I had a feeling whatever I had posted would result in an immediate dismissal.

Who would pay for lore? I would. Every person who buys a book buys lore. Every person who buys a movie buys lore. Plenty of developers hire writers specifically for lore because they see there is value in it - look at all the Tom Clancy games.

Players without EotD1 are already a burden in any fight with Kar`Zok. There is plenty of content to enjoy without encountering Kar`Zok. They're limited to one zone (Gorowyn), with slight exceptions.

I don't understand. Hero's AAs are gained by completing content. So by not completing content, you'll in fact complete more content? If you're forced to complete this content, and then carry on doing more content, how are you not ahead?

Asked and answered. Want a different answer this time instead of lore? Character development. Making toons overall stronger so we can complete more difficult tasks. Doing just the easy stuff keeps the skill floor low, and keeps the skill ceiling low as well. If you can only do "double" the floor, those at the top aren't going to see new mechanics that might actually challenge them.

Want another? Limited development resources. They're rewrapping old content as new content so that there's still enough to do for the next year. Forcing us to do older content is going to keep us busy. We're only getting 6 zones in this expansion. Imagine if half of it was easy-mode. How quickly do you think people would run through it all? Top tiered guilds are already going to have this complete in no time. It'll be the same for the mid- and low-tier guilds if this is the case.

Want another? You're being pushed out of your comfort zone into something you might actually enjoy.

Want another? Read any of the 100 pages already posted in these forums discussing the matter. Plenty of reasons within them.

That's how it currently stands and I'm fine with it. As for doing it for future expansions, we'll see how this one comes out first. If it's a resounding success, I'd be all for it. If it gets people to complete content, push their class to complete their gear sets, and promotes open groups / open raiding, I'd say it's overall beneficial. It could be a complete flop that finally kills this ancient game and would free me from hitting Refresh in these forums during my breaks. You could say the same thing about anything that has changed in the game. Some of it has worked out remarkably well (Instances), others have been awful. But it's not like the awful ones stick around for additional expansions.

Wouldn't it be great if we had some kind of post addressing all the people who think EoK progression is required to enter RoS zones?

Idk, maybe some kind of bulletin. Or a PSA. With pictures of happy frogs and cats in hats.

That'd be a pretty useful post for all those folks who think they can't play in RoS without EoK, considering this thread is now 11 f****** pages based on an OP that isn't even accurate.

Certainly nothing wrong with it, considering you aren't just going to march into RoS+0 Raid without EoK+x Raid equipped, and you definitely aren't going to skip all the way to RoS+3 on opening day.
When epics were the thing, was it bad design to require you have 1.0 done, then 1.5, then 2.0 (and the dreadful 2.5)? Or would you have preferred to just jump straight in and get your 2.0 without any previous work before? Same logic applies here with regard to the armor upgrade requirement. So, this concept isn't something new. It has been tried and tested before, and it didn't break the game.

How about a cat in a frog hat?

Admittedly, there’s no reason for a grouper to do EoK progression. There are several raid guilds that can do EoK T1, that haven’t completed TBM yet. All this stunt is going to do is slow down post pre order sales.

I generally think that railroading players into specific equipment sets is a bad idea. I liked earlier expansion where there wasn't this focus on sets. I thought the addition of stuff like sebillis-armor and the FM-ancients-hat, meant that they were ready to give people more choices.

It will make tradeskill armor a hard sell, if people fear they will "fall out of the gear-loop" forever, if they choose tradeskill armor over dropped sets just once. RoF/CotF had lots of non-set visibles, that were a viable alternative to the armor sets, and didn't become a "dead-end" later on.

Like we are saying... if you didnt do EoK progression... why do you want to do RoS any quicker? The people being lazy want things handed to them...

So the question everyone is dying to know for the people that haven't done EoK progression.
WHY HAVEN'T YOU DONE IT!?

You still have time to finish it, GO GO GO. Therein lies the solution to the dilemma.

Yes, because what you posted, only works in a game where each player can advance at their own leisure. It doesn't work in MMORPGs because once the community has moved on, finding groups for old content becomes nearly impossible and you have to literally beg in general chat for them.

No one wants to beg.

For people who are up to date with the content, who buy expansions as they release, who finish expansions the same year as they are released... It's a completely fine requirement. Even one of the better requirements, for all the reasons you listed. But once you start thinking about people who don't buy expansions as they release, who don't finish expansions the same year they are released, who don't have the time to keep all their characters up to date... Then, such a system becomes a problem. A big problem. A problem that, when it happened in the past, ultimately required equipment resets in the form of very easy zones like Dragonscale Hills that dropped up to date equipment, because so much of the player population was behind the curve and so couldn't cut it in the new expansion = bad experience = no purchase = quit = dead game.