rogue poisons: bite of the shissar

Agree!! While they're at it, put back in Growl of the Leopard to help Beastlords similarly

REALLY though, they need to go through and remove them all, or once again were reinforcing the "exploit early and often" mentality.

Bobbybic -vs- A bunch of elemental trash: -- DMG: 1121866 -- DPS: 243 -- Scaled: 242 -- Pierce: 365695 -- Slash: 273897 -- DirDmg: 247877 -- Backstab: 230165 -- Environmental: 4232 -- % dmg as normal: 93.5% -- % dmg as critical: 6.5% -- Non-crit rate: 96.8% -- crit rate: 3.2% -- Attempts: 12411 -- Hits: 7834 -- Missed: 3807 -- Defended: 770 -- Accuracy: 67.3% -- Avg Hit: 143 -- Max hit: 5430

So 3x your overall damage is a bit extreme. I only topped the trash parse by around 200k with 2nd place being a wizard. So it's not like rogues are suddenly super OP compared to every other class, if anything they are somewhat balanced atm considering they have no utility currently outside of maybe dragging a corpse compared to Monk FD and Wizard ports.

All that said, I expect they'll be removed but I'll be happy if they get left in.

Not really OP, more like a much needed boost to a class that has taken a back seat since launch to Wiz, Mag, and Mnk, with Rng, Shd, and Nec tossed in for good measure at various points. They're also the class with the absolute lowest utility on that list, and completely dependent upon other classes to do anything.

If anyone should be doing top dps, it's Rogues, and our parses to date in PoP aren't showing other classes being blown out, or even that Rogues are regularly out-dmging Mnk/Mag/Wiz/Rng on raid mobs. It's a bit early to know for sure, but casters should scale well with spells & focus (plus better AA than rogs), and Mnks get better AA synergies plus Speedfocus (which is friggin huge for burns) - not to mention pulling/better tanking/survivability/etc.

they really arent that crazy, the 2715 seems huge off a proc, and double procs make for big spikes but taking the long view with a larger sample, the damage isnt wildly imbalanced

what if they leave in the lvl 50 versions! fair deal?

That's an interesting point... balancing a change/fix to go live on progression when it should have been done makes perfect sense. There is plenty of precedent (we had maps before LoY, etc.).

Not saying PoP is the right time for the rogue poisons in question, but it is worth dialing them in.

Can DBG take an official stance on this? Will they be removed or not? These are out of control right no on bazaar and in /auc.

If the damage output is fine, then add back to vendor.

If not, remove them from game.

It's really thgat simple. You can't get a little bit pregnant. They are either fine, or not fine.

Since you removed them from the vendor, clearly you do not think they are fine.

And please don't tell me "they are consumables so no worries". There were over 4000 on sale in bazaar only earlier, on a handful of traders, not counting the people who have them stashed!!!

I'd be open to seeing more data. At first glance these seem extremely out of place, but if the data says otherwise, no point being stubborn about it

How well did that work out for a lot of people with the claim bug?

I don't disagree. It's all preliminary since it's day 3 of PoP. If it's truly causing 3x the dmg of anyone else, it's OP as heck. If it's making Rogues actually be competitive for top dps, then that's sorta where they should have always been.

I'd be happy to provide some parses at 65 with appropriate era weapons, provided the poisons are still in game at that point.

I can tell you that the level 60 poisons don't help in PoTime as every god 100% resists it.

What would you do with a million plat?
I'd proc two harmtouches at once.

Quite well for the people I knew a lot of extra krono from all the sales with a minor few day suspension. How was it for people you know?

Should ask how the plat dupe on RJ / LJ was that was a much better turn out.
Or do you think all those folks got their plat removed as well?

I parsed it today at about 100 extra DPS on a level 65 rogue with max dex. Just over two procs per minute for an hour. I'd guesstimate for Luclin/VT geared rogues that would add about 25-33% sustained dps (300-400 sustained dps seem about right currently for VT geared rogues?) and for time geared rogues maybe only 15-20% to their total dps. Which by itself doesn't seem that ludicrous, especially if Time geared rogues aren't already winning parses without the poisons.

I think where it becomes silly though, is that that extra dps is very random--you're going to average 2 procs per minute over a long period of time, but one rogue may get twice or three times that on a 5 minute boss fight, while another rogue might get half that or less. So that one rogue that gets lucky each fight is going to add a lot more than 33%, or 20%, or whatever the # is. I had someone send me a parse earlier from a tier 2 fight their guild had done, ~5 minutes on mob, the rogue that topped the parse did not disc, missed a lot of backstab opportunities, and normally parses last by a long ways among all the rogues in that particular guild (I was told he never breaks top 20 on guild raids.) But, he got lucky on the proc rate on one mob, and beat everyone, including all the other rogues that did disc and hit their backstabs every time. Likewise, you're going to have rogues that proc 3 times in the first 5 seconds, pull aggro and die. So if rogues need a dps/balancing boost, this really isn't the way to go about it at this phase of the game.

Let me edit to add, the idea that Daybreak is going to do any real class balancing at any point on progression is pretty ludicrous too. It's just too much work to keep up with.

You can testcopy and buy the level 65 poisons and parse there.

The poisons perform exceptionally well in group content due to mob levels/resists. On raids? Marginal impact if any due to resists. Should they be removed? Meh...

This was with the level 60 poisons btw, I will parse again tomorrow with level 65. I'd forgotten there was such a big step up from 60 to 65 poison.

I mean prathun already went ahead and took them out once. So I dont think the balance arguments will work that well. They just took out all DoN tomes with no reimbursement because it was a couple expansions out of era like these and gave an advantage. I think people just want to make sure that some players dont have thousands of these stocked up for sale/use while others dont. While it might be needed by rogues I just dont see how they could leave it in after they made the mistake of removing DoN tomes the way they did and killing research. Removing all tomes some people paid 10 krono for while leaving in already bought poisons so people can profit off them is a mistake. They really have to keep going with the remove every single one style.

If they want to leave them in they could add spider bite potions to a vendor for the other melee classes i'm sure

Huh? How does this make any sense? Rogue poisons were revamped to balance the class. Giving it to all the classes would do the opposite.

They werent revamped to balance rogues in PoP. Other classes got their own makeable potions later on. How do u leave a out of era rog poison in but not a out of era melee potion? Rogue poison is not a spider bite potion.

If devs for some reason choose to give upgrades to classes now to balance them there are a few other classes that could use some help.