rogue poisons: bite of the shissar

I guess everyone is forgetting Quarm and rogues on there?
Cleric + warrior lf 4 rogues for trials pst! (exaggeration but not much)

Rogues 'topping dps charts' were always dependent on discs and gear, I'm all for class balance and usefulness (btw as for complaining about utility, door illusion nerf anyone?) but these poisons are over the top.

a 2k + change proc? lets compare that to the weapons of the era...
Great Blade of Chaos from Potime Bertox, DD proc of 250
Ifir from Fennin DD proc 100

And not forgetting all the AA and crit procs they can do with it.

Lets go one better and compare that to wizards the kings of DD...best spell base damage at 65?
Strike of Solusek 2740, shock of magic 2400-3k, which is a spell with mana useage a cast time and so on......

But hey whatever lets leave them in, because after all its not like the content is already easy enough

Yeah you can go to test, but it doesn't really provide the same data as a content-appropriate raid hitting raid targets will. 100% swing uptime on a dummy isn't really painting an accurate picture.

It paints a perfectly accurate picture on # of procs. Maybe not on resist rates though.

Except that has nothing to do if they're still doing superior dps to rogues. You could have a 10k nuke with a 10min recast, and still be the lowest dps on the raid. Or even if rogues are marginally better in some situations. In most parses on our run from launch->PoTime, this was the case - rogues were either marginally better (mostly trash) than wiz/mag/etc, or was behind the usual classes.

Sorry, I misread the original post. It would not bother me in the least if other melee got spider bite. I am probably in the minority as I also don't care if Phinny stays "true" to historical progression. So much is already different and for the better, imo. Seems silly not to institute lessons learned.

Not being able to assassinate lvl 59 mobs and proccing insane dps on raid targets are 2 entirely different issues.

Try again with your whining.

insane dps is very much an over statement. It only procs about once every 2 or so minutes, even if you got 3k every proc that's only 25 extra dps. So it's not like these things are game breaking or anything. Even in group content it's not like when you add a rogue with this it's like "whoa our dps has just taken off". People are getting all upset because they see 2k or 3k procs but what they don't realize is that it's not going off very often.

After a full round of flagging and a potime clear, the poisons are actually pretty worthless in a raid environment.

Looking at my parses, it doesn't appear that the poisons actually land on anything worth a damn. All of the gods and such are so high level the 0 resist check poisons simply don't land on anything.

They're pretty good in a group environment, but I don't think they're necessarily overpowered there either given the total and utter lack of group utility rogues have.

I understand removing them because out of era or whatever, but TBH I almost think they should be left in, as they do actually a decent job of balancing the class in a group environment. It's nice to have people actively want rogues in groups for a change.

We're still overshadowed by people AOEing like plane of innovation or charm groups in CoD or kite groups at fire tables, but at least in a standard group situation we're relevant.

One thing to keep in mind is that Plane of Time is not the only content between now and when they should release.

There are raid mobs that they absolutely will land on in future expansions. They are early by a good 8 expansions, and basing the decision to keep them in or take them out on resist rates in just 1 of those 8 is maybe not too smart.

Here is regular grinding in PoFire at 65. Using a BiS PoTime weapon MH and an Agnarr OH along with the lvl 65 Poisons.

Bobbybic -vs- Fire C2 Trash: -- DMG: 1361964 -- DPS: 477 -- Scaled: 477 -- Backstab: 409782 -- Pierce: 393030 -- DirDmg: 286635 -- Slash: 268020 -- Environmental: 2272 -- DoT: 2225 -- % dmg as normal: 88.2% -- % dmg as critical: 11.8% -- Non-crit rate: 93% -- crit rate: 7%

For compasions sake the 2nd highest DMG in the group was a 62 ranger using Luclin gear, who was at 855k Total damage done. Without the poisons I'd be ~200k ahead and have to constantly be in melee range compared to afk autofire from safety. If the ranger is wearing PoTime gear I imagine the total damage difference would be much closer.

Seemsfine, at most nerf the damage on this tier of poisons by 20-30% and leave em in.

What is your dex? If you are getting a proc once every 2 minutes, that is terrible.

Bobbybick's parse, like mine, shows around 2 procs per minute (and I'm assuming he's capped on dex as my parse was.)

So 21% of your total dps from dd's atm (assuming most of that is the poisons.) Or a 26% increase over base dps. And that's ignoring innate weapon procs (I'm assuming that by far the biggest chunk of your dd damage is from poison.)

But on trash mobs. It's significant, but not overpowering. If you look at nothing else.

My experience has been pretty close to that; about a 30% bump in damage output over time. The poison may help normalize the bazaar geared rogue from raid geared rogues a bit. I suspect the proc will be a larger increase for the common rogue.

It's really not OP. Wanna see OP, check out chanter pets doing twice the dps while also tanking, but that hasn't really changed. I think if the same dmg increase had been incorporated in our backstab damage rather than an eye candy proc, most people wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

My experience and parses also ends up pretty similar to Bobbybicks.

It's also worth noting that overall, our gear is pretty crap compared to what it will be. I imagine once you throw some time weapons into the mix, the % contribution from the poisons will be diminished a lot given the gap between Luclin and Time weapons.

Not that it matters because tens of thousands (enough to last for many eras) of these have already been stockpiled, but I heard a SECRET that you could buy these in the Tutorial by creating a new toon, and putting money in the shared bank slot so your newbie could access this.

Lol. They just can't win.

So far as I can tell, that's not correct. After reading this I went and checked all of the vendors in the tutorial, and there's nobody selling poisons.

It looks like the lowest of the poisons was level 15, and so wouldn't make sense to be in the tutorial anyway as it's over before then.

Test update today says underfoot. I could never recall myself it's only a few expansions off.

Underfoot, hmm. We have raid poisons before underfoot, and spider bite etc. I think they got this one wrong.

Find some proof!