Since you are intent on being so black and white with the translation, I'll return to my original argument about using the Razer Synapse or Logitech Gaming Software which you passed off as ridiculous yet continue to argue this hard line stance of "no means no". Both of these are 3rd party applications and are required in order for me to properly use my Razer Naga or Logitech g500. I used the software to map keys and adjust sensitivity. I like being able to use a thumb button to activate jboots or innate camo or stuff like that. I am not using any auto-clicker, automation, or macros - but I do need to use the software in order to properly use my mouse on Phinigel. By your interpretation, this would be against the rules - because this software is absolutely enhancing my own experience on Phinigel, and they are active and running when I play the game. Yet you know why you said this was ridiculous earlier in the thread? Because you are right, it is. And your argument about Remote Desktop is the exact same thing. Someone could potentially use RDP to setup a configuration that might break the rules as they were intended - but the basic idea put forth by the OP was to simply leverage a 2nd physical PC to box, which is perfectly acceptable on this server and would never in a million years be of concern to DBG, much the same that they wouldn't care that I have my thumb button configured to use jboots.
The absurd thing is that simply using Remote Desktop at it's simplest level means you are using TWO computers to run ONE account, not one computer running two accounts. As I said before, many people run EQ this way from work. The next level up in complexity is running an account on each computer, with Remote Desktop running one of them. But there is no automation, and this case is fine too. Running more than one copy of EQ and running key broadcasting software via Remote Desktop is a violation though (just for Phinny and Quarm servers), but Remote Desktop is incidental to it.
this, this, and this all day long. Oh well Illusory will never get it. He's going to continue to bring up random points to justify his opinion until this gets locked, there is no way he will understand. No matter what type of rules/blocks are put in place people will find ways around it, specially in this type of environment. Coming down on the people that use software in good intentions shouldn't mean they need to be the poster boy for the ones using the software for bad intentions. Keep calm and go play some Everquest!
The rules are simple, there is no grey area, and using mouse software to backup your defense is ridiculous.
But there is a gray area. It's what is economically worth enforcing for the game company. Simple, non-disruptive, remote desktopping is not worth to the company to pursue. It doesn't negatively impact gameplay, and therefore profit, enough to dedicate time and money to stopping it. Disruptive gameplay, that also involves remote desktopping, is worth their time to stop. Luckily for DBG's disruptive gameplay is obvious to the players and GM's watching the game, and requires a far less intensive investment of time and energy to recognize and stop. Even if DBG's came on here and said remote desktopping is evil, don't do it, it wouldn't change anything. DBG's isn't going to hunt people down and enforce that rule in game, unless you are being disruptive in other ways. It's a moot point. Remote desktop to your heart's content, just don't be a jerk about it.
So I'm curious how you managed to get Everquest to run without Microsoft Windows (you know, that 3rd party program that just about all EQ players use.) Ever tabbed out to use Chrome or Firefox to look something up on Allakhazam while playing? More 3rd party software. But that doesn't affect gameplay so it doesn't count, right? In fact, there's a built in EQ feature that lets you import text directly from these 3rd party applications so that you don't have to type in quest text directly--the paste hotkey! Very helpful when dealing with Sirran the Lunatic. I can even using nothing but chrome, email, and copy and paste, type up a lengthy list of commands on my work computer, send them to my home computer, and have my EQ character execute them with a couple simple keystrokes! That's just a stone's throw away from issuing commands with remote desktop. But I don't see anyone railing against using a web browser while EQing. The community relations manager has demonstrated repeated use of 3rd party software to stream his gameplay on Phinigel to twitch. As have others on the EQ team. How about parsing programs that put up an overlay of your dps on the screen? People have even posted such programs directly to these forums without any dev making a peep about 3rd party software rules. (And keep in mind the same "rule" listed in the Phinigel FAQ has also been in the Eula for all of Everquest for most of the game's existence.) I could go on with plenty more examples of 3rd party programs that offer various levels of gameplay impact but don't seem to be getting anyone banned on Phinigel. The ragefire prices data collector. Gina. Ventrilo/Mumble/Teamspeak. The Allakhazam item collector. The Magelo data collector. Wineq. Key repeaters or autofires built into your mouse or keyboard (as long as you are at they keyboard, anyway.) Probably many more I'm not remembering or aware of. The point is, there have always been exceptions to the 3rd party software rule. Clearly the SOE/DBG team has some internal guidelines to determine which software is acceptable and which isn't, and clearly the line is different on Phinigel than on other servers. But they've very rarely made specifics known to the player base, and when they have, the answers have not always been consistent and often have changed over time. Frankly, it's frustrating and why we keep having these arguments. But no one should be able to argue with a straight face that no 3rd party software is allowed and that's the end of the story, no questions asked.
All this fannying about because Daybreak had to make a server where boxing itself is harder to pull off, instead of taking action solely against input cloning programs. Or is it because they had to put instancing on a server with no boxing? Sorry, it's hard to keep track of the ways they just don't quite create a version of paradise that fits everyone.
Well this conversation certainly got off-topic quickly. Please note; a lot of you are paraphrasing the rules without actually linking the exact verbage.... Please see this old thread here where I quote the rules directly from their own legal documents. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/settle-the-argument-3rd-party-programs.226671/ So first thing is first: 3rd party programs aren't blanket-banned. Only banned if they affect alter the game or modify the playability of the game. In that post I also reference the cheating clause of the terms of service specifically talking about automation. But none of this means s|-|it because DBG does not follow their own rules nor do they enforce the rules so long as there is a profit to be made. Please read this next selection of posts discussing a comment by Holly Windstalker talking to the community. In which she admits auto-boxing exists and they weren't going to be doing anything about it except for opening up a new server phinigel-a true box server. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...stancing-on-no-box.226642/page-5#post-3326835 Finally, here is the original (and final) comment by RadarX which basically confirmed that you can use cheating software as long as you are at the computer. https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq...-3rd-party-software-and-boxing.221973/page-54 This was when I un-subed and said screw it, that was a waste of krono on Ragefire. ( this was part of the heated topic of auto-bot crews farming for krono ) But DBG essentially not caring because it fills the coffers.
Generally agree with your comments but two points. First, the actual verbage has changed several times, and isn't even currently consistent among the various documents that are available (the Eula says one thing and the Terms of Service says something different and contradictory.) Second, the exact verbage on Phinny is slightly different than what you have referenced. It is specifically (from the Phinny FAQ): Even this has changed some over time from what I recall (I think they added the pickzone timer line after it was initially published but not 100% positive.)
This is exactly what I was saying(with a bit more detail to back it up, thanks!) and this guys response is "That's ridiculous". Tad ironic if you ask me. You could show him a blue car that is clearly blue, but he will argue the darn thing is red no matter what you say. Not really worth arguing with this type of person, but sometimes I can't help myself!
Your examples are just repeating the point GregSA made already. Since the statement about 3rd party software is sandwiched between two other restrictions on boxing, the obvious assumption is that they mean no 3rd party software that gets one around the boxing restrictions. Other kinds of hacking software are already against the rules for all servers in rules stated elsewhere. Note that Daybreak said "may result in action being taken". That "may" part means they will decide based on the case. If you try to be clever, you're basically breaking rules and hoping they let you off because you can convince them the rules were too vague to understand or that they didn't really mean it or something. Doesn't seem like safe ground to me. And 3rd party or not, isn't it a clear case of playing multiple characters from a single computer..........
I think it can be seen that way, (and really I'm more sympathetic to your point than against it overall) but it could also not be seen that way. The character is still running on a second computer. You still need six whole computers to box a group of six. And you are using a feature built into the operating system to send keystrokes and mouse commands (without violating the third rule and sending one keystroke to multiple toons at the same time.) It's not like it's some additional 3rd party software--you are already using Microsoft Windows either way, this is just one feature of it. And, you have to at least wonder why they phrased that 3rd rule the way they did if they did not envision people being allowed to broadcast a single keystroke to a single character on another computer. Why not just say no broadcasting keystrokes at all? And as I noted, there are a number of legitimate ways to provide input beyond typing directly on a mouse and keyboard physically connected to the computer. So where the line is drawn isn't as simple as people are trying to make it out to be. The problem is that "may." When something like this comes up, and some players think it is legitimate, and others do not, Daybreak really needs to provide a definitive interpretation of the rules so no one gets banned doing something that they think is legal. Why they won't do that I have no idea but it's inane.
While I certainly agree they should make a definitive interpretation of the rule, my instinct tells me that the reason they don't get too specific is that then they become liable and put themselves on the hook for enforcing it. Even if they did come out and say "Using Remote Desktop is 100% against the rules in every possible case", the candid reality is that there is simply no way they would(or even could) enforce it. And why would they even want to? Its like trying to pull over every car that goes 32 in a 30. Sure, you want to go after anyone that goes 50 in 30 and causes potential harm to people around them, but no one cares about someone going 32 in a 30. Yes, maybe they are breaking the rules and maybe they are not, but the mind boggling part to me is that if you step back and take a look at the bigger picture and see how this actually impacts the people around you, you'd realize that it ultimately has little to no impact on anyone's gaming experience when used in this particular context.
They phrased it that way because using 3rd party software such as your OS, Gina, Gamparse isn't against the rules. Rather certain functionality of 3rd party software is, it's why the next thing is "Any method to send one key press to multiple characters," it's why the truebox code is designed to disconnect people the way it does, just view it as 1 toon 1 keyboard
The problem is, it's not like this. It's like pulling people over when the sign just says "Don't drive too fast," and sometimes an officer will pull people over for doing 45 and sometimes an officer will pull people over for doing 25 and we're all left scratching our head as to what "too fast" means. Rules that can get players banned for breaking ought to be crystal clear enough to where there is no question at all if something violates it or not. The broadcasting keystrokes rule is--it's extremely clear and no one's had any question as to where that line is. The other two rules unfortunately, not so much. If they were to declare that using Remote Desktop violates the rules, that doesn't mean they have to catch and ban everyone that does it--but it would let players know there is a risk if they choose to break the rule.
But the rule doesn't say running multiple characters "on" one computer, it says playing multiple characters "from" one computer. I'm not sure what you noted that you're referring to, but you could rig a keyboard to send the same input to every computer without using any additional software then easily run around with 30 mages all in lockstep /petattack'ing and nuking at the same time etc. This is presumably what they were thinking of.
You are 100% right, and in fact earlier in this thread I said that exact same thing, but thought it was easier to convey the point in simpler, finite terms. My main point in saying that was that there is no tangible impact of going 2 mph over the speed limit(analogous to a single person boxing 1 additional character via RDP), even if the rule was crystal clear.
The preposition doesn't really make a difference in this case, as either on or from can have multiple meanings and nuances when you're talking about software and the hardware that is executing it. Someone using remote desktop can plausibly say, "But I am running that character from a separate computer, that's where the client is running..." All of the communication between the EQ server and the client is coming from that computer. The graphics displaying the character are being generated by and sent from the computer on which the client is running. Lots of ways in which you could say the character is being run from the computer even if the input is coming from somewhere else. They could clear up the ambiguities pretty easily if they wanted to.
They could but they won't. It's easier to let the folks who cheat the system keep cheating long as they don't make big waves or it's limited to a small % of users. That's the #1 rule in EQ over the years, when you have a work around make sure you don't cause waves or release it to enough people, once it's wide spread then it becomes an issue.
You're right, but they could still do the same and make the rules more clear. Leaving things ambiguous just encourages more people to toe the line.
