New players - pick a knight if you aren't a boxer

Yes that's with wars getting runes or something that makes up for the difference of knights healing. The difference is, a rune helps at max hp, when a heal does not. War utility already exists, they have many group buffs, they just need more, and that more needs to be something that can counter/compare to knight healing. Don't take it as I don't care about war utility/mitigation, I am one of the people that said they overshot, but since they probably are not reducing it, as it has already been a patch cycle since, then I can only look towards the future and see how war can make up the difference without creating the gap that was there before.

Unfortunately this didn't happen at an expansion release, so if there is something coming to compensate, then the war community should reach out and try and help determine what that will be.

Yes times have changed and you are right mitigation is much more important, thus why a zerker dps, and splats to the mob sneezing at them. I agree, and what I stated was kind of a baseline, something to work around and continue. The game is not like it was and has to adapt, but we have to keep it within reason and balance. Also dont forget that % based balancing gets out of hand quickly.

When a few of us suggest non-utility/tanking upgrayedd ideas for warriors, i.e. ways to make warriors better than Knights that don't already exist, we get bludgeoned to death with complaints - too many buttons, wuah that'll never stack, that's not warrior-ish, no I don't want to be a hybrid, and so on and so on. Not saying every idea is brilliant or feasible but it's a lot better approach than the QQ-Knights-are-OP-now-I'm-throwing-a-tantrum-and-refusing-to-discuss-any-new-ideas-about-any-improvements-to-warriors-until-you-nerf-Knights-QQ song and dance, assuming of course that knight stances are here to stay (I'm assuming that they are).

Look back on my previous posts - I suggested a number of things (spell blocks, a self only aoti-CH, an endurance harvest, a big beef to dual wield, some overcap spell/dot shielding, an innate rune proc buff, a vie disc similar to mantle/carapace, a repel line that sucks less, etcetcetc) that would help regain an edge, one component of which was nerfing knight DP down a little. If stances are staying the way they are, I'd absolutely be supportive of additional warrior carrots. But it seems you guys just want the cake from last week and nothing else, even if it's gone a little bad in the fridge since it was baked.

I put together a lot of wishlists. There's stuff. Downward-scaling defense. Meaningful fast-reuse defense abilities. More friendly Leap/Stomp. Upgrades to older abilities. Lots of things I think we'd agree on.

Then there's that whole slew of absolute trash that I only put on just to be complete about it.

I would say the most truly meaningful items that came as a result of player feedback in recent years are removal of the Warlord's Tenacity DOT and the large boost to discipline agro during RoF beta.

But the one thing Warriors as a community really got together and pushed was making Dual Wield meaningful again... boy did that one ever blow up in our faces.

Careful sir, you don't want to draw He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named's attention upon us by mentioning this topic .

Right. We wouldn't want to soil the sanctity of this thread. One thing is for sure that you can't start a tank balance thread without a dozen competing interests crapping all over it.

If you played a max level warrior you would understand heck Dre doesn't even understand.

We are already at too many weak abilities that we have to combine together and still fill up 10 hotbars.
Warriors do not want to be a warridin .

So think logically and take away things that would make that happen active healing no way utility that are not built in to our core abilities no thanks .

We mitigate position and dps .
Those are our jobs and they can make us better building upon them .

And Dre I am a bit disappointed you missed about 5 things that have been meaningful in just the last 2 years bro I think you are a bit behind .

Just because stances have not been reduced does not mean it is not already in the works remember he was looking at how to nerf wizards when this started . The more you think all is good when it isn't, is just going to disappoint you more when it happens

I don't deny it. I wasn't in the last couple betas and there's a reason my Magelo is 2 years out of date. But if you can think of other, better things Warriors recently gained, purely as a result of player feedback, I'd love to hear 'em.

It's really not hard for anyone to understand, some classes are worse than others (my monk alt, for example, is stupid mashy) - there should be less buttons for *everyone*. War have it worse than most, but if it means removing weak, crappy 5th hotkey bar abilities in order to repurpose that space with something meaningful, only an idiot's going to turn it down.

And I think you'd be surprised, Knights are close-ish in terms of total # of abilities/keys used to max out, plus with the spell bar and the common occurrence of being interrupted. I don't think you'd like it if most of your meaningful short duration abilities could be interrupted because there's a mob or two meleeing you.

The hp boost via aa, upgrades to mark of the mage hunter , imperator's, Dichotomic, no time to bleed/pain doesn't hurt , The changes and boosts to taunt and ae taunt. The bumps to resists . The removal and upgrades to tenacity. The boosts to hate through % based multipliers. There is actually more . Stances the most impactful * Actually most recent abilities to warriors have been a version of suggestions for quite awhile now.

Warriors are designed to be harder to disrupt what we do . It is actually intended. So trying to compare us in that area is useless .

Interrupt chance vs a normal amount of mobs are a million times better than pure melees' 100% chance to be interrupted by a single point of damage.

You really have to get into absurd numbers of mobs, or intentionally be casting slow spells for interrupts to be as big a problem as some suggest. I manage to channel just fine when swarming on my Knights. Most of my problems with interrupts are one of my priests/casters against groups of mobs that should not be dangerous at all, but they whittle you down due to lack of non-interruptible damage output.

I hear you on the run-stop-cast thing though. EQ's handling of that is nonsense. EQ2 (and almost every other game) did this way better.

Define Relevant

Well, not really any surprise items on that list I just define the criteria differently.

The imperators are awesome and I suggested them we use them constantly.

Ae taunts used constantly ageless used constantly .

The hp boosts keeps us from being rounded and helps add onto the advantage here.

Pain is awesome for certain things irreplaceable in those situations.

The resists while everyone is charmed or snared we resist it more and mezz can't do your job when your cc'd.

Mark of the mage hunter who says it has to be new to be impactful and without player feedback it would of never been given to us?

Dichotomic they didn't give everyone ,one that helps them as much even though for only like 30- 60 secs .

Beasts and rangers can steal aggro off you in a second and even monks if you are not going full blast like I said you are behind.

I agree about pure melee "channeling" - and I'm not arguing that warriors should have to channel more abilities or should be interrupted more often or anything. The fact that Knights can and are interrupted is an annoying, but reasonable tradeoff in some ways.

That being said the whole "warriors have more hotkey ability clutter problems than other classes" thing is a bit of a fallacy. A lot of other classes are in similar boats (every class is different, so war challenges are unique), but I'd say the same thing for them, too. Less abilities but ones that are more potent is a good thing. Clutter abilities should be repurposed or removed.

Also being said, warriors claiming that casting interruption is not a common occurrence is silly. It's a very common one in practice, even with no more than a couple of mobs. You'd be astounded how often my 1.5 cast AE hate spell is interrupted in normal gameplay, but stupid factors like internet connection, zone/game lag, PC specs and junk affect it too.

This is not true. Push is a direct result of how hard mobs hit based on in game physics. Swarming is another thing entirely. The devs need to look at the push code again as mob max hits have increased raid mob push has surely gotten worse as the max hits have escalated.

Since when did warriors become the most resistant tank ? Do they honestly overcome silent piety, shield of brilliance, sanctification purification? Paladinss got the charm resist aa also was there something more added to warriors?

I'm of the opinion that anything we truly do "constantly" should be passive. That goes for all classes, really. In all games. Pushing buttons just to push buttons isn't design - it's tedium.

You're really nitpicking now.

From RoF until pet agro changes I never had agro problems. So I guess I'll give you that one with Shepard's AA.

When it comes to push, Knights really have it better off than most classes. An instacast mount that nullifies push is wicked awesome, even if you can't use it everywhere.

I'm not the one that said we only got 2 substantial things since rof. I would argue we have received more useful things since then than we did in the same amount of time before rof. Actively having to keep a buff up or hitting a no fail taunt to switch the mt of a fight is not tedium .

Who said we are the most resistant? We all have reflect and resist aa .Cures are not resists also . We get spell absorbs also . Dichotomic and mark of the mage hunter also. Our 2.0 reflected spells.
Pain doesn't hurt 6: Mitigate Melee Damage by 100%, 1879000 total
8: Mitigate Spell Damage by 100%, 1879000 total

We just received some ranks to resist any detrimental and I think to make them break early too. Could log into look but why bother for a useless comparison.I believe we also had higher innate resists than any class not 100% sure there though I know for sure MR.

So ,not looking to argue we could add that as a utility and a way to mitigate more damage to smooth out our damage line to put us back to surviving the most brutal battles the best .
Especially considering spell stuff has been mostly only balanced by making the top of the hate list not get hit by certain spells .