Lockjaw Rotation Updated - 8/15/15

"However, the purpose of the rotation is not to promote equality among guilds or equality of outcome. The purpose of the rotation is to ensure that no one is denied access to content."


Says who?

I am not sure if it has been proposed, but: Rather than pegging the number of FFA slots to the number of guilds in the rotation, why not peg it to the number of guilds who want to compete? For example, if 3 guilds wanted to be 'competitive' there would be 6 'competitive' slots in the rotation along with however many guilds do not wish to compete. A non-competitive guild would not be allowed to 'compete' on a spawn designated for that and a competitive guild would lose their rotation spot. In this way any guild who wishes to 'compete' has more opportunity for loot but at the risk of not getting the kills.

As an observer mostly, I like the idea of 24hr windows, but feel it is unworkable without DBG doing their part and reducing spawn time even more than they already have.

Because the goal of this is for faceless to get 50% of the raid targets uncontested. No one else wants to poopsock 18 hours with them for every boss, so they'll basically have 50% of the spots on the rotation.

This is just like TL building a rotation "for the casuals", when the whole premise is limiting everyone else to as few boss kills as possible, but making them "guaranteed".

Right now on the current rotation, we have a decent amount of guilds getting quite a bit of raiding action. With Darth's proposal, we'll have Faceless killing 50% of every spawn, and everyone else raiding 2-3 nights a month. Every guild that joins the rotation gives Faceless another spot on the rotation, and adds 2 more spots to the cycle. Faceless wants to make this rotation "pro casual" so it fills up with as many guilds as possible, because every guild that gets added is another spot on the rotation for Faceless.

*Edit* As for Dima's new proposed rotation, I think it has good ideas but only one FFA per cycle might not be enough. 2:1, 3:1, or doing something like first, last, and middle spots on the rotation are FFA might work better.

Ehhh...You're very wrong. First of all, we do not and will not poopsock for 18 hours.

Second, Dima's idea with an announce FFA Targets and leave them up for 30 mins? No way. That's being a lazy guild leader.

You really need to do some research on how this rotation began. As mentioned Faceless proposed this rotation in the beginning. Why would we want to be greedy about it? They want other guilds to see targets and get loot. I think you need to think a little harder about this situation.

I think, the leadership of any bigger lockjaw guild can clearly see, what is tried to sell us here and why.
And i doubt, anyone is stupid enough to step into that trap.

As it was already said earlier

I mean, we've seen you poopsock things before they even go into window. You can say on the forums all the time that you don't want to poopsock, but we see it every day.

I mean, all this does is discourage . If you guys don't like to, and don't engage in , whats the problem?

Really? Honestly? You don't care at all about other guilds. You know for a fact this rotation will basically net you 50% of the spots on the rotation uncontested. Why would you want to be greedy about it? Because all you care about is controlling the server and pushing other guilds out of boss kills. I don't think theres a single non faceless person on the server who buys this whole "Faceless is just here to help everyone and wants everyone to be happy!". Just like TL on ragefire, you get off on controlling the server and being the "big dog". You're both just realizing no one really wants to play your game any more, and now with rotations and voting, we have the ability to disincentivize that type of behavior

Good Ideas? There's two changes and you disagree with one of them, so how can it have "good ideas". And i'm sorry the 2nd idea is the most laughable thing I have heard.

Remove as many FFA as possible(1 per entire rotation) and announce that 1 FFA spawn to all guilds(ie we need others doing work for us) and no one can engage for 30 minutes after its spawn(ie we need time build all dps raid and get there before you kill it).

Both ideas are nothing but Dima trying to compensate for barely killing any FFA mobs. Hell Modest Man(Dima's guild) and AD(ONe of the other 3 guild guilds on LJ) both teamed up to try and do CT ffa and still lost.

There is nothing to choose from anymore.
Now there will be some more guilds in this server council.
And suggestions will be made and voted for it. And a suggestion with a majority of votes i call a decission. After that it will be a fair rotation or at least much better for all.
And there is nothing, anyone can do about it beside ragequit.

We went over this whole argument and the last person that argued with me claiming that FI poopsocks every single target got schooled by both logs and accounts of both AD and MM members so if you want to embarrass yourself, keep claiming we poopsock every target for 18 hours at a time.

Moving on from that, we have had a very fair rotation that started before the first month of this server. FI could have easily locked down 95 percent of the content on this server from the start and caused as much drama as Ragefire has had. They chose to work out rotations for the health of the server. The rotations worked because the top 3 guilds were able to work out deals that all of them could appreciate. As a result of the rotations set up, we have 3 very strong very healthy guilds and plenty of other upcoming guilds on this server that are killing all of the content on a regular basis.

There has been a massive influx of guilds wanting in on this rotation and the leadership of all of these guilds are going to be working something out come the 15th as Dima has mentioned. It will be tough. I like the current rotation with 2:1 FFA in it because it give the guilds that want to shine a chance to shine. I have made some suggestions to my leadership on how to make the 2:1 FFA cycle a bit better for everyone so I hope they bring these suggestions up because I think the suggestions could benefit all guilds in the rotation (although no matter what FI is going to lose targets from the look of things).

If the goal is to increase the turn around time and include more guilds in the rotation with easy access during peak hours, then FFA shouldn't even be tied to the discussion since FFA does none of that and only delays those guilds from having access for 22-36 hours per FFA day in the cycle. Additionally if the you want the rotation to cycle thru faster rather than a spawn going FFA after the alloted engage window it would be passed to the next guild waiting in rotation, and larger guilds would make themselves available to trade rotation places with smaller guilds when targets spawn during off peak hours for them.

Darth's proposal tied everything to FFA days because he's courting support despite claims otherwise. 24 engage windows are only a PITA with limited raid content, if Kunark mobs have a similar faster respawn rate which we will know as soon as Ragefire unlocks it. the window could realistically be lengthened with minimal impacts, By velious the games raid scene feels more fully fleshed out aand 24 seems more than reasonable for the # of guilds on the server. By the time Planes of Powers comes out I imagine the majority would largely prefer to have 24 windows for flagging as many of their members as possible to get to Time.

Funny thing is, talking to friends in MM, dima is only putting his ideas forward to try and get back at FI and make them frustrated so they quit.

I remember Fippy,being in a 3rd tier guild then(silly RL) and he was trying to do the same to TL.

You say courting support like it's some dirty word. Compromising isn't something to be ashamed of. Literally, I want something, you want something, let's propose a plan that tries to fulfill both of our goals without hurting the other too severely. How awful.

What I meant was only to determine the number of strict ffa or 'competitive' slots in the rotation. Any mobs not killed by the guilds in the rotation would also become 'competitive' at that point. This would mean that any 'competitive' guild would at minimum have a chance for twice the kills as a non-competitive one. If they don't wish compete and there is only one 'competitive' guild they would still get two guaranteed kills for every one any other guild gets in addition to being able to compete for any mobs not killed within the designated rotation window.

The issue is trying to tie the number of 'competitive' slots to the total number of guilds instead of to the number of 'competitive' guilds. As the number of guilds who wish to compete for kills increases so do the number of mobs available to contest. Each competitive guild adds 2 slots to the rotation, each non-competitive guild only adds 1.

Really curious what "friends" you're talking to in MM. No one is doing anything to get "back at faceless".

Heres what it boils down to:

The raiding rules Darth proposed only benefits his guild, and no one else. The rest of the guilds on the server would like rules that are beneficial to everyone. As much as Darth wants to claim his proposal is for everyone, securing 50% of the rotation slots to his guild, and decreasing the number of targets available to the rest of the rotation guilds, is not beneficial to anyone but faceless.

Dima is pushing for rules that limit the benefits of a poopsock, and gets more guilds involved in a fair rotation, while ensuring as many raid targets as possible for everyone.

You only think hes trying to negatively target Faceless because they're a predatory guild who gets off on trying to control the server, and any fair suggestion makes it harder for them to do that.

Thanks for the feedback everyone, positive and negative. I've constructed my rotation based on a number of factors, primarily what is most beneficial to the majority of the server long term.

I've done this rodeo before as some of you already know, and one thing I've learned, it's best to keep things as simple as possible, yet have something everyone wants. My stance would be the same regardless of my guilds individual position here on the server, ignore the naysayers. If any of you fanboys want to personally have a discussion on a public forum about me, I'd suggest an unmoderated channel like the EQ subreddit where I'll happily chat with you as long as you disclose your game identity.

This discussion is not based of any individual guild(s), nor should it be.

The rotation should be as quick as possible. A 24 hour window to engage is nearly 66% of a mob's average spawn timer already. A guild that does lapse due to a mob not spawning on their prime time, would be allowed to claim the same FFA mob that spawns during their prime.

Darth, when I approached you and your founder about rotation details when I started raiding on this server, you refused any commitments, citing the upcoming patch where the raid targets were being buffed. Being the guild that retained the majority of the targets, it is disappointing that you did not take a stance on rotation entry. When I found out you had a 2-1 rotation with AD in your favor, it was unfortunate to hear, you could have encouraged a 1-1-FFA, or a similar from the very start - you did nothing there but to lock into place your personal entitlement to more targets. Another guildleader accused you of not being cordial with details about the rotation. Your founder wanted 3 months of complete FFA, followed by an unspecified 3 month rotation.

When we actually got in our first few meetings, one of the first things your representatives did was to threaten to splinter into multiple guilds to retain as many targets as they could. This is wrong. You should be encouraging a healthy server, not an atmosphere where guilds try to circumvent and take advantage of the rotation.

I've always been open to compromise. I look forward to chit chatting with everyone tomorrow at our sit.

Modesty cares.

I agree with you 100%, I was just explaining why faceless isn't interested in such a solution. Their whole goal is monopolization of content as much as possible.

MMmmmmm This one wasn't as effective to me. For 1 it isn't exactly english and for 2 it doesn't have the signature heart in it. I am not getting the feeling that you actually care from this ending... I am getting more of the feeling that you just care about yourself here. Please add a heart and use proper grammar.

The MM PR machine at work.

You obviously do not know Dima.

Dima presents "I am friendly and care about what you want" face to the public but behind closed doors he is completely different. He's a Politician. He was the same way on Fippy. Dima's sole goal is to remove competitiveness, because his guild cannot compete. That's why he wants 1 FFA per entire rotation or to have FFA spawns be announced server wide and with no engage for 30 minutes.

Dima and his guild(citizen) couldn't compete on Fippy, so they resorted to scripted HTs by SK box armies to compete and still lost majority of them. He then tried to push a rotation system there but couldn't. Citizen only became top, once TL burned out pretty far into the expansions(he claims otherwise).

And I know he's targeting FI because he tried to do the exact same thing to TL on Fippy. If say AD was doing what FI is doing now(killing most of the FFA mobs) he would be targeting them. It's not based on a single guild, its based on "someone is better then me, must do everything I can that doesn't include becoming better at the game, to knock them down a peg". He hides it under "I'm doing this for everybody" but its his personal little power plays.

This coming from someone playing casually on LJ atm(but I watch the raid scene to see who I might join in future), but I raided on Fippy(once RL gave me a break) and I recognize Dima playing politics again.

This one is just for you, since Modesty is the guild rank I assigned

Modesty cares. <3