Ragefire Rotation Discussion

Agree. This rotation "suggestion" seems like another attempt at getting TL a majority of the raid mobs.

A better solution would be to have four 6-hour time slots instead of just two and each guild in the rotation can sign up for any number of them. So a 'Midnight - 6AM EST' and a '6AM - Noon EST' slot would be added to cover 24 hours.

Example:
So say Rosengard is only signed up for the Noon - 6PM EST slot and they're next on the Naggy list. If Naggy then spawns at 2AM EST (not in their window) it would goto the next guild on the list that IS signed up for that early morning slot. So if RoE was at the top of the Naggy list AND is signed up for that time slot, they'd get their 3 hour shot to kill it and if they didn't/couldn't, it would goto FFA. If they do kill it then RoE would be moved to the bottom of the Naggy list while Rosengard would still be first in line. So Rosengard missed this rotation but they get first dibs if it spawns in the single slot they're signed up for.

Doing it this way gives a fair shot to the guilds that can muster a force any time of the day instead of just giving TL 55% of the raid mobs.

If you are going the timeslot route, why not just rotate timeslots and not spawns?

Then there is no maintenance, no need to notify anyone about kills

If I round up 7-8 other guilds whether they have the capacity to beat raid targets or not and create a new rotation that favors my guild does that validate it?

Do you know of any guilds that were not given adequate notice of this to give their opinion? Do you feel as though anyone who was present did not deserve to give their opinion and ultimately a say in the future of the server? If you can openly invite all of the guilds on the server to join you and get a majority of them to agree, yes, that is what should be done for the benefit of the server. No one was excluded from giving their opinion during this meeting and those who joined came to this agreement. If you know of anyone who was excluded and would like a say in the future of the server, feel free to speak up.

Hmmm

Out of the guild list that took part in the discussion, only the inclusion of The Last Guardian looks out of place, and that is simply because it is a TLP splinter guild (TL/TLG Guild members, don't bother arguing the point, nothing you can/will say will convince me otherwise), so I fail to see why you have a problem with the rotation if all those other legit guilds agreed to it.

My concern isn't that someone like Darkwind was coaxed into voting for Twisted Legacy interests. My concern is that a guild like Darkwind did not understand what the current rotation (Favors them equally to anyone else) versus the one they may have agreed to (Favors Twisted Legacy heavily). There is no reason for this new rotation, these guilds are being sucked into something much worse for themselves. If Darkwind had to wait an entire month to join this new rotation (That is what TL professes as the "real problem") they'll still get more kills through the Ruins of Kunark Cycle than with this new proposed rotation if they were added today.

Again, Twisted Legacy will take half of all kills plus their spot in the rotation. What this means is if there are 10 guilds in the cycle and Darkwind is one of them, Darkwind will get 1 Lady Vox kill in 20 spawns (Over a month) while Twisted Legacy gets 11 kills. Twisted Legacy will never see a decrease in kills no matter how many guilds join the rotation, but it will get worse and worse for Darkwind.


Twisted Legacy constantly frames changes to the rotation coming from a source of concern for the rest of the server. "We need more FFA so guilds can get a shot at the Gatekeeper mobs in a timely fashion!" they say. But that is not required if the Gatekeeper mob is Keeper of Souls. "We're just making midnight to noon FFA because no one wants to kill in the middle of the night anyways", why not gives guilds 24 hours to kill then Rosengard Guild isn't stuck working on US times? There is a pattern of fabricating problems and then presenting solutions that benefit Twisted Legacy, its the literal definition of racketeering.

I don't know the position of Gynx, Dojii, Bonglon on this, but I don't agree to this. This will leave Twisted Legacy back to getting the majority of the raid targets again. If the target spawns in your time frame?

Are you kidding? Your guild may never even get a kill - the variance is so random. This deal completely favors Twisted Legacy.

Seems people have a hard time understanding the capacity to kill a target, and a lack of opportunity to kill a target.






The current rotation is enforced and approved already.

I'm not in favor of this updated rotation but I do think it had some good ideas. I think that the time slot suggestion was a good one and I can understand the issues that Euro guilds have when their raid targets spawn during off hours, but I think the idea was poorly implemented. The issue I have with this new suggestion is having 12 hours as FFA. It's completely unnecessary. There are a number of guilds that could easily mount raid forces during most hours of the day so why not make those early mornings into time slots as well?

If you're going to do time slots, they need to cover 24 hours of the day. There's no reason to have half the day be FFA which we all know will be dominated by one particular guild.

I will tell you exactly why this rotation is beneficial to the longevity of the server.

Guild A can beat any target, any time of the day.
Guild B can beat any target, any time of the day outside of their respective 9-5 while people are working.
Guild C can beat any target, but only during their prime time hours.

(there will be far more Guild Cs on this server in the long run than any other type)
Current rotation is set up:
Guild A
Guild B
Guild C
FFA

Target X spawns for Guild A. They kill it as expected. Guild B is up.
Target X spawns for Guild B during work hours (33% of the time). Guild A gets it because Guild B couldn't get a team together.
Target X spawns for Guild C in the middle of the night. Guild A gets it because it's outside of Guild Cs raid hours.
FFA is FFA.
Target X spawns for Guild A. during Guild Cs primetime. They get it.
Target X spawns for Guild B. They get it.
Target X spawns for Guild C. Spawns during the middle of the night, they don't get it.
FFA.
(ad nauseum)

Right now, the odds that a Guild in the C bracket gets their target at all and isn't just skipped is low. Rotating such that they are guaranteed the next one that spawns in their primetime rather than just the next one that spawns gives them a better chance of getting their spawn.

If Guild A is in both primetime brackets, guild B is only in Euro primetime and guild C is only in NA primetime, here is an example of what spawns might look like.
Example:
Spawn Y goes to Guild A and they get it during primetime.
Spawn Y spawns in the middle of the night, Guild A gets it again.
Spawn Y spawns during the Euro primetime, Guild B gets it.
Spawn Y spawns again during NA primetime. Guild C gets it.
Spawn Y spawns during Euro primetime. Guild A gets it.
Spawn Y spawns at night again. Guild A gets it.
Spawn Y spawns at night again. Guild A gets it.
Spawn Y spawns during NA primetime Guild C gets it.

Guild A appears to get more kills on paper than they do with the current rotation, but as more guilds are added to the rotation that don't have 24/7 coverage, those kills would be going to Guild A anyways. This new rotation gives you the next time a target is available in your raid window, which is healthier for the less hardcore population and gives MORE PEOPLE a chance to experience the content.

Guild C gets a guaranteed chance to get a target during primetime. Guild A gets the competition that they so desired without having to wait 3 hours in the middle of the night and guild B can compete for targets or take their primetime slots and be content.

Right now on the rotation, we only have room for Guild As. There isn't even realistically room for Guild Bs who have hours that they aren't willing to field a crew. If we truly want to look towards the health of the server, this gives everyone what they want.

The goal is not to equally split up the targets and loot. It is to give people a chance to participate in the rotation and actually have a realistic shot at killing their targets. The current rotation comes down to a loot protection scheme for Guild A's that don't want to compete against other Guild As on any FFA targets.

If you don't understand why this is beneficial to the server, we can bring some actual statistics in to see where we're at as far as "chance to spawn vs window of raid times" and you will see that this new rotation would be far more beneficial to guilds that only have a 6 hour window for a spawn and how they will get more targets this way than if they were to take their chances on the current rotation.

The current rotation is only beneficial to 24/7 guilds that don't want FFA targets. It's really that simple.

Which guild are you in?

This isn't a bad rotation proposal - it's a terrible proposal. It's disturbing how hard one guild will try to manipulate everyone to ensure they get the majority of the raid targets.

Under the current rotation we could either extend the window from 3 hrs to 24 hours, or we could allow guilds to voluntarily lapse kills without penalty (IE, Rosengard could say "We don't want to contest our next Innoruuk because it is going to spawn during hours we don't want to raid" but not start the count on them being dropped out of the rotation). Then guilds could have a choice between getting an equitable amount of kills or only raiding during their prime time. There is simply no reason to give 50% of the kills to twisted legacy and dress it up as concern for other guilds raiding hours.

I created an example of how a 24 hour time slot rotation would work.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PeL8CpB386QyrYOfv-8M1ETP_mItZR1u0ObkeFPjE3I/pubhtml

I took the data directly from the google doc in the original post. The only thing I added was the two additional time slots; Midnight - 6AM and 6AM - Noon, and populated those two time slots with examples.

So lets take Nagafen.
Nagafen
Reign of Eternity
Rosengard
The Last Guardian
Apokalypsis
Twisted Legacy

RoE is currently at the top of the Naggy list. Lets say Naggy spawns at 2AM EST. RoE isn't signed up for that time slot so it goes to the next guild in the list, Rosengard. They're not signed up for that slot either so it then goes to Last Guardian who IS signed up. LG then has the normal originally agreed upon 3 hours to kill the boss. Whomever kills the boss then gets moved to the bottom of the list of that mob. So if LG killed Naggy it would look like this.

Nagafen
Reign of Eternity
Rosengard
Apokalypsis
Twisted Legacy
The Last Guardian

Doing it like this will ensure that RoE gets first dibs at Naggy when it spawns during one of the time slots that they're signed up for.

If Last Guardian was NOT able to kill Naggy during the 3 hour window in the previous example then the mob goes into FFA for the remainder of that time slot.

You obviously know what guild I am in already or you wouldn't be asking like an idiot.

That doesn't change anything about what I posted. I hate getting up in the middle of the night. I've missed almost every raid since we've gone to rotation because almost all of our kills have been in the middle of the night. Why would I want to opt into 50% of our raid attendance being while I want to be sleeping?

It literally doesn't change anything that I am a member of TL.

I could be a member of any guild and recognize that this new rotation is better than the old one for everyone on the server except Apok and RoE. I wouldn't care if they added another time slot even. (would still like some FFA obviously). I personally don't believe in rotating every spawn. It takes a lot of luster out of the game for a lot of us. Even this rotation isn't ideal for those of us who joined to do exactly what we did. Dominate content. For me, it wasn't about being the only ones getting content, it was about doing things as efficiently and effectively as possible. Letting mobs sit up for three hours while a guild doesn't even show up to attempt them isn't something I am looking forward to.

This does not invalidate anything I posted previously. Like I said, the only ones that this negatively impacts are guilds like RoE and Apok, who have 24 hour coverage but don't want to compete at all. The current rotation is exclusive to those who can field a raid at any point of the day.

Will the new rotation benefit TL? Probably, if people don't want to compete. Will it also give the other guilds that currently have no chance of fielding a 24/7 raid force a fighting chance? Yes.

The rotation doesn't need to be equitable. It needs to give people an opportunity to kill raid mobs when they have time to do it. You need to understand that either an agreement like this needs to come through, or you will have a lot more guilds forming up as TL members realize that they don't need their current membership to rotate through mobs. Why would I want to share 1/10th of the loot with a guild like TL who has a ton of mains when I can easily down the content alone with myself and two friends boxing and get much more loot myself? But please, if your only goal is to continue your loot protection scheme, definitely continue to bash on proposals which benefit those with less time.

In this system they would get more than 50% of the kills.

What a load of rubble. You hardly have any accurate facts. This favors Twisted Legacy only - and you're not going to convince anyone that TL is looking out for the best interests of the server.

This will end as a failed attempt by Twisted Legacy to manipulate the rotation to get more pixels.

Nobody agreed to anything behind anyone's back. Again, that is a Twisted Legacy narrative that is simply untrue. There were multiple proposals floating around, Daybreak chose the one that was most fair.

They are trying to do this deal because Twisted Legacy knows none of those guilds can kill the targets except their bot guild The Last Guardian. This will end in TL picking up all the targets that don't fall on ROE- APOK- RG rotation. This a terrible rotation proposal.

50%(or more) of the kills will still go to TL if the current rotation fills out with people who only have certain raid times.

Why is everyone stuck on this being completely equitable? TL has recruited the forces necessary to field a competitive raid force 24 hours a day. What is stopping any other guild from doing the same? Why should we now be punished for doing so?

I think that one of the biggest problems with people understanding that this isn't just a ploy is that people have a huge distaste for how TL had the raiding scene in a chokehold. We weren't breaking rules, we weren't using any exploits, we weren't even initiating socks. Yet, we have now been branded as cheaters, a-holes, and disingenuous liars.

I will leave my guild right this minute if anyone can give me a truly valid reason as to why this new rotation is worse for the majority of guilds on the server than forcing them into 3 hour windows 24 hours a day. (Hint: You can't, because the current rotation is beneficial only to those with 24 hour coverage.)

Don't believe me? Ask Rosengard, an extremely capable raid force that would fall into the Guild C category. Under the current rotation, Rosengard will lose 3/4ths of their targets to time, without even getting to attempt them. They currently get to attempt 1 in 16 of the raid targets and that's before more guilds are even added.

I don't know what anyone needs to do to prove that this is better for the server, but only those who are in the protected loot scheme are currently opposing it.

I honestly would like to hear from guilds like False Prophecy, Remnants of Prexus, Ceaseless, and others as to whether they feel like they have been duped into agreeing to anything that they didn't understand. Does this sound like what you were discussing?

Apok and RoE asked for a fair raid solution on the server. They submitted something that may have seemed fair at the time, and maybe still seems fair to them now. But the rest of the guilds on the server seem to have disagreed and come up with something more fair to more people. Why shouldn't it change if everyone is looking out for the best interests of the server?