Ragefire Rotation Discussion

Discussion in 'Time Locked Progression Servers' started by Abracadabra, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. Gloom Journeyman

    Not going to argue much with you on this, but your perspective is a little off.

    Coming up with a rotation, and making changes to one in place, are TWO different things. You're lumping them into one.

    I'm simply saying that if you added something as I posted before, where only guilds ON the rotation can vote for changes to the CURRENT rotation - a lot of this would be alleviated.

    Per your quote, I seriously doubt that any rotation formed by solely guilds outside of the rotation, without approval from most of the guilds in the rotation, will ever stick.

    It's like asking a bunch of mechanics (outside guilds) to come make decisions on the tech support guys (raiders) problems.
    ^
    Not saying mechanics can't become tech support guys (through the gatekeepers/getting on the rotation THEN being able to vote), i'm saying that they aren't currently.

    If these servers are going to be playing politics, might I suggest not being the type that demands everything be your way. It's never productive in environments like this.
  2. Freki Augur

    Gloom, i was referring to the rotation listed with this new rotation. in this new rotation 10 guilds were listed as part of this discussion (and I do not think it is ready to put out to the masses and active yet) and not all of those guilds were to be on the rotation from the start. and if we go by what you say, we are dead locked. ROI and TL approve this new one, apok and ROE do not. and YES I include ROI as there is someone representing ROI (but ROI is not on the rotation to start with) so 50% of the original 4 want this so who breaks the deadlock??? i'd say DBG would break the deadlock, and this means that they would probably go with something that more guilds got behind than the original. thus you have 3 of 5 people vs 2 of 4. thus a majority.

    so you believe that anyone not on the list is not a raider? well I disagree with you ROP has raided, AND has defeated Keeper of Sky (BUFFED). just tell me your definition of raider... someone willing to get up at 3am and raid for 4 hours, then drive to work, work 8 hours, come home, raid then sleep; wash rinse and repeat? that is idiotic to only consider those raiders.... that precludes TL and RMT people who do this without a job (some not all) and make it their job to do this.
  3. iMugatu Elder

    I love how ROE and Apok try to speak on behalf of other guilds like they know what's best for them or when they try to speak for the Dev crew putting words in their mouths.

    This is better than cable tv.
  4. Abracadabra Augur


  5. lalaloup Augur

    Looks like benefits go to the people who can be the most diplomatic. Could be wrong, but this all looks incredibly positive.
  6. Gloom Journeyman


    I'm parting from this conversation, because it is quite apparent where you stand.

    A) You want everyone to be able to alter something that governs raiding for a server... BAD IDEA.

    B) My classification of Raiders is completely irrelevant to my topic, and my responses. You are reaching pretty hard here. If your point is true, I could log into ragefire, create a guild ( because, remember I don't have to be a raider to have my opinion matter! ) and attend a summit as the Guild leader, and sway votes. (See my post above, about guilds creating 4-5 alt guilds to manipulate majority votes in discussions.

    C) The fact that you can't See A or B, is why I can't continue this conversation. Anyone who is only thinking of themselves and can't see the bigger picture (in your case you are only thinking of your guild, and not the state/health of the server), doesn't warrant any further responses from me.

    Also, if there are only 4 guilds on the rotation, I'm sure they could come to some agreement (such as a person they all approve of, not affiliated with those guilds) to settle the ties. Again, you're being close minded and definitive in situations where you cannot think outside the box.
  7. PathToEternity pathtoeternity.pro

    I'll just hit what I can here. I have a busy weekend and won't be able to spend a lot of time going back and forth on these boards but I did go through these first few pages and note what I wanted to respond to.

    Please forgive any typos as I'm not proofreading this for errors.

    The agreement to change the rotation can be found here: http://www.ragefireforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=341

    The proposal has already (with only three guilds as of this posting) been agreed on by more guilds than agreed on the 7/28 rotation (only 2 guilds agreed to that one).
    As long as there is no impact to the data presented, updating the style of the spreadsheet probably isn't something that would receive much if any opposition. The spreadsheet linked is simply a recast version of internal spreadsheet TL was using to track spawns anyway. It's a start though, and calculates the opening and closing of spawn windows automatically which hopefully will be helpful to other guilds on the rotation.

    Tracking gatekeeper failed attempts is probably fine, making a new tab for that is no big deal, just need to make sure that's what everyone would want. I'm not really sure I favor guilds having to post their failed attempts, but I could see it making sense for guilds which give a 24 hours notice that they want to attempt.

    I am not really sure what you are saying here. I know a lot of people who play EQ who never visit any forum, message board, subreddit, or twitter pages (they probably enjoy EQ more than anyone in this thread :p ), but we're talking about the leaders of server guilds here. The 7/28 proposal is stickied at the top of the official EQ forums, to say these people didn't know about it is a real stretch for me, on top of the fact that multiple times the 7/28 propsal was referenced.

    I'm also not really sure how much more transparent you could get without literally holding this discussion in /ooc or General. Perhaps if a DB representative had showed up (they were invited)? I think you need to clarify whether you read the chat logs because you can very easily see the discussion, that it is the other guild leaders making proposals, and Skyp primarily only spoke to moderate (ask clarifying questions, propose votes, and occasionally offer statistical input such as the relative difficulty differences between mobs).

    Yes, or at least it appears that way. As far as I can tell we are all kind of trying to figure out exactly what DB expects of us. It's super easy to say "Figure it out on your own and we'll enforce it" but executing that is leaving a lot of us with questions. Beyond that though, I think the answer must be yes. The 7/28 proposal was 2 guilds agreeing to something with 2 other guilds notified about it. The 7/31 proposal was 8 guilds agreeing and 2 guilds being present/disagreeing, with an open invitation extended to both Daybreak and any other interested guild on the server.

    If you read the logs you'll see that another conversation was suggested. If this is the last serverwide leadership discussion I'll be extremely surprised, but it was definitely the first serverwide leadership discussion.

    1) That's kind of an insult to Darkwind. I think if you talk to Darkwind though what you're going to find out is they want to be able to raid during their prime time (Euro). Their concern isn't how many kills any other guild is getting; their concern is whether they get to raid during their prime time or not.

    2) If they ever agreed to the 7/28 proposal, please let me know where I can find a link to that. My understanding is they were not invited to participate in any discussion on that one.
    Please read the logs to see the proposal to change the gatekeeper (back) to Keeper of Souls.

    Here is a screenshot of the 7/28 proposal previous to change the Gatekeeper to Nagafen:
    http://i.imgur.com/RLvFCff.png

    As you can see from the logs there was definitely discussion as to what the gatekeeper would be. The participating guilds finally agreed on Keeper of Souls (Spiroc Lord was also heavily considered).

    There is no need to fabricate problems on this server. It's very clear that problems are running rampant from top to bottom. One of the problems is that many guilds only wish to raid during their primetime, and they do not want to be responsible for missing (or failing) to kill a mob because it spawned during graveyard or office hours. This was very well received by many (most?) of the guilds participating. This will also cause TL to lose many (most?) of it's prime time kills (we still have prime time - most of us have full time jobs, etc.) but it is what it is.

    I know you weren't implying that Apok would get two votes, but you are also more than able to read both the chat logs and the list of agreeing guildleaders. I am not really sure what the purpose of disagreeing here is. You already did a solid job (this is not tongue in cheek - I'm being serious) demonstrating that rotation proposals do not need to be unanimously agreed on.

    We are already getting more targets than anyone else. We are already killing the mobs in the FFA slot, anything that goes FFA, and already several mobs have been traded to us because they fell outside the primetime of another guild (Rosengar).
    Only instancing solves this problem. No rotation can address variance.

    Of course it is. I am not aware of any guild which thinks the current rotation is unenforced (has any guild stolen a rotated mob ?). Daybreak stickied the current proposal - I highly doubt any guild doesn't think it's approved.

    That's why these proposed changes go into effect at the end of the next full cycle of the current rotation in place. This doesn't wipe out the current proposal. This updates the rules.

    Honestly, if eight guilds coming to together aren't able to effect a change in what Daybreak's willing to enforce, then they really need to clarify what they are asking for.

    I think if you read the chat logs and just remove every line spoken by any member of TL you're going to find 9 guilds discussing a proposal and 7 agreeing with it. This was the first open discussion on the server among guild leadership. Maybe discussions can improve, but for a first it went very well.

    This is kind of a joke. That there were multiple proposals floating around is the only true statement here. The 7/28 was only agreed to between Apok and RoE. There were no open invitations for discussion: it was done behind the back of every guild on the server except TL and RG (who did not agree to it). Apok took this proposal, lied to Daybreak about it (stating that myself and Bonlgon worked on it with them), and asked Daybreak to approve it, which they did.

    I haven't seen any Daybreak comment on that. I don't really expect to. But I think when they look at the 7/28 proposal ("a guild lied to us about how many guilds worked on this") and the 7/31 proposal ("eight guilds agreed to this after an invitation was extended to the entire server to discuss") they won't have any difficulty approving it. When something else comes down the line, hopefully it has even more guilds signing off on it.

    Again, read the logs. There's a literal record of everything said. You will find us weighing in very, very little if at all on any point of conversation.

    We've been working out deals with other guilds individually for weeks now, and had been having internal discussion about possible rotation ideas since before any of this blew up. Most (all?) of the officers in TL have been a part of rotations before. Servers historically reach a point of critical mass where this happens.

    While not a true rotation per se, I'm sure Apok has not forgotten that we agreed with them to abstain from all pre-buff Inny kills in exchange for any DE masks that dropped.
    Pretty sure the 7/28 rotation was accepted because two guilds agreed on something, lied about two other guilds agreeing on it, and took that to Daybreak for official approval.

    Both are opinions however, I don't think DB has ever commented on why they chose one or the other. Hopefully they will at least scan the chat logs posted, see how many actually did work on this one, and back it.

    The majority of the guilds on the server aren't interested in raiding from midnight to noon.
    (As a side note, TL definitely won't raid from midnight to noon either once instancing comes either.)
    I have the 7/28 proposal open on my other monitor right now. I've read the 8 rules of the rotation and don't find find anything about a 4 party (no tie-breaker ?) vote system.

    What I do find, however, is Roshen stating:

    "Starting immediately, we’re asking guilds and players to talk to each other, and create their own raid rotations. However, we know trying to enforce a raid rotation can be hard without enforcement. Beginning on Monday, July 27, 2015, Guides will be available to handle situations that guilds can’t work out on their own… and the dev team is prepared to provide support in any extreme situations."

    Last night guilds and players talked to each other. While this happened for the 7/28 proposal it was - being generous almost to the point of dishonesty here - four guilds "talking" to each other. It's been stated that I was a part of this discussion, but unsurprisingly no chat logs have ever come forth because the conversations only took place between Apok and RoE.

    You can read last night's chat logs and you can view how many guilds have agreed to the proposal.

    If Daybreak really says that additional guilds can't weigh in, after they've already stated that guilds and players need to talk to each other, than we are kind of wasting our time even bothering with any of this at all because the problem would be larger than rotating content. I don't really think that's the case and I don't know of anyone else who does either (I mean we definitely have other problems :) But talking about the rotation specifically).

    There isn't a process defined there. I'm looking at the rules right now.

    The process was defined by Roshen as I quoted above.

    The rotation hasn't been abandoned. It is still fully in effect and (as far as we know, it hasn't been tested thankfully) is still being enforced by Daybreak. The current rotation cycle will continue until it finished, one more cycle will elapse, and then the most recent proposed changes will supersede the previous proposal. There is no reason to believe Daybreak will not enforce these proposed changes.

    [IMG]

    Conclusion:

    I think any time you have a bunch of people trying to strong arm each through diplomacy you are going to get a lot of questionable stuff going on. And that even works a lot of the time. However, when you have an agnostic arbiter - Daybreak in this case - the trump card is transparency and honesty. We could have gone the direction of trying to drum up who knows what to get something shoved down the throat of the server. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't have.

    But the safer bet, is to lay all the cards on the table, invite everyone interested, come up with a proposal through debate and voting (all sides willing to make concessions), and then present that to Daybreak. No one should have veto power with this stuff, and I think that's the main misconception among the larger players (TL being previously guilty as well).

    I don't know what else you could ask for. I don't know what else Daybreak could ask for.
    Kalamurv, Sagnid, Esper and 4 others like this.
  8. Ethereal Augur

    I mean, you were at the meeting. Your complaints and objections in the beginning were heard, noted, and discussed. When everyone started to actually vote on things (about an hour and a half or so into the meeting), you didn't seem to give any objections. You were still there, as you were still posting things into the raid chat. It's your own fault for not defending your opinions at the time. Its not fair for you to come back a day later and be like 'nah guys, sh*t was rigged!'.

    Either you weren't paying attention, meaning you didn't care, of you just simply didn't care enough to bother giving your input.

    As for accusing TL of secretly going to other guilds and talking to them, I'm confused on which part of this is a secret? TL is the one who organized this, obviously they went to every single guild there to speak with them. Heck, the TL rep that came to talk to us wasn't even present to give his idea to the group, I'm the one who had to do it, and I'm not even in TL. I proposed it because I liked it. It just happened to be good enough for everyone, that we all agreed it was best. It wasn't even the original idea either, we still spent almost 2 hours tweaking it further, as a group. RIGGED!

    *Edit: As an aside, posts like the one I've quoted here are doing nothing but ruin your case. You should consider taking a bit more time to collect your thoughts, and maybe some proof before hitting that submit button.
  9. iMugatu Elder


    They want the rotation that they created, not the one that the server wants. They don't want competition at all. They want to be in control. They NEED to be in control. It's amazing watching their reactions to this.

    I cannot wait for DBG to hammer the nail.
    Porygon likes this.
  10. Porygon Augur

    That post was like poetry Jain. My God.
  11. Constellation Augur

    This is all becoming very tiring, and I am sure that is the intent of Twisted Legacy. They are not going to stop until they get their mobs. I will not pay any attention to a guild that doesn't have the force to beat any of the targets. This is outrageous. It's like me getting every guild on the server to suggest/input on the raid rotation even though they have no chance at beating the targets. This is such a ploy, and it's sad you can't see it. KOS is going to steam roll your guilds, he's harder than every single one of the gods/dragons. They want this change because even with 72 players KOS can wipe out your guild faster then you can blink. If you have 20-30, maybe even more magicians you can beat him by pet walling him. This is a ploy, a scam - to get back 90% of the mobs.
  12. PathToEternity pathtoeternity.pro


    Look, we stepped back to see how your guild fared, and so far you've downed everything except CT (due to a random person - not TL - accidentally training CT onto you). We didn't like it, but we did it. You stepped up to the plate and made good on your claims.

    Any chance you'd be willing to do the same for these other guilds? I feel like you're being unduly harsh in judging their capability.
  13. TL_KRONOLORD Augur

    Speak for yourself please. We can't all be in RoE to experience this phenomenon.
  14. Constellation Augur


    My raid force is 72+ with one push of a button. These other guilds have 30-40 raiders, they are not going to beat KOS with those numbers and you know it. This is a ploy to keep everyone off the rotation, and remove APOK/ROE from the majority of the targets too. The top 4 guilds all know how hard KOS is and that landing a spell on him is a miracle. We know you struck some back alley deal with RG for the euro spawns, and everything else goes to you. It sad that you actually convinced the other guilds you are doing this for them.
  15. Constellation Augur


    Hey DA, that was RG that was getting kicked around by KOS with 80 raiders, not ROE.
  16. Antonico Journeyman

    I would like to ask a question about the discussions from last night. I read the whole transcript and I notice that several guilds had raid targets come up(and had to leave) and the discussions were not put on hold? I am just wondering why they continued if several groups had to leave mid-discussion to kill their raid targets in the time allotted to them. I understand getting 10(more like 30 with officers) people from around the world, together on one night, even for a couple of hours, is incredibly difficult, (then the big BUT monster comes in), BUT when 20% of the participants cannot be involved for an hour or two, could the discussion not be post-poned? I would like quicker resolutions to the raiding issue and I think you all should have gotten together and made a straight, "3 hour raid timer won't start until we finish these discussions".

    I personally would also enjoy if we HOLD the Innoruuk, CT, Nagafen and Vox kills by the "confirmed" guilds, until the other guilds get online and get them attempts on the gatekeeper's. So that there is a clear cut raiding list of the guilds in the rotation and the one's that didn't quite make the cut. THEN decide on what is the "fair" rotation. I know people would be supremely unhappy with holding the kills, but I believe there is too much going on for this to be resolved while guild leaders are worrying and working on getting their guilds to the next raid boss and clearing it out, ect.

    But that's just one little bear's opinion.
  17. TL_KRONOLORD Augur


    I must be getting my guilds mixed up then. Was it ROE that wiped to Inny with 78 then? What was the guild that wiped to CT with the 70+ bind rush? Jog my memory please.
  18. gladiatoreq Elder

    Wait, RoE is saying OTHERS are guilty of back alley deals?

    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
  19. Ethereal Augur


    Who left? Everyone who joined stayed in the raid the whole time, once they joined. The only person who went LD that I can recall was Matthias from FP.
  20. Abracadabra Augur


    Before the discussion took place, I sent Breeze a message to join in on the discussion. This was the response I received, she eventually joined the conversation and basically didn't propose or discuss anything.

    [Fri Jul 31 16:57:30 2015] You told breeze, 'When you guys are ready to join the discussion, form a group with your corresponding representatives and I will raid invite you guys to the discussion.'
    [Fri Jul 31 16:58:00 2015] Breeze tells you, 'it will have to be after Naggy, he's due anytime.'

    She eventually joined the conversation later and this was what she added to the conversation.
    1. [Fri Jul 31 17:44:00 2015] Breeze tells the raid, 'Yes it was'
    2. [Fri Jul 31 17:44:16 2015] Breeze tells the raid, 'three hours to reasonable'
    3. [Fri Jul 31 17:44:22 2015] Breeze tells the raid, 'is * reasonable'
    4. [Fri Jul 31 17:47:32 2015] Breeze tells the raid, 'are you suggesting 3 hour/ 1 fail?'
    5. [Fri Jul 31 17:55:32 2015] Breeze tells the raid, 'three hours is a ton of time to attempt a mob'
    6. [Fri Jul 31 17:57:36 2015] Breeze tells the raid, '3 hours is good <roe>
    7. [Fri Jul 31 18:07:53 2015] Breeze tells the raid, 'no one go into naggy's room he just spawn'
    Over the spawn of approximately 23 minutes, that was all she was willing to contribute to the conversation.

    [Fri Jul 31 18:08:07 2015] Dojii tells the raid, 'it's important to give us a time for discussion but..... we're seeing what weaknesses the rotation has now. and what needs the server has. So we will probably have to have even more discussions guys.
    [Fri Jul 31 18:12:29 2015] Dojii tells the raid, 'We need to have many more discussions but do small simple changes over time.
    [Fri Jul 31 18:16:02 2015] Dojii tells the raid, 'I have just been reading and listening to everyone's feedback. I've been taking notes and getting a real good idea of what the server needs are. And the weaknesses of the rotation in Contrast. --- We are going to need to have many more discussions. '
    [Fri Jul 31 18:28:38 2015] Dojii tells the raid, 'I gotta get going here soon guys. so yea... let's do this again'

    This was essentially what came from Apok.


    Based off the rate of spawns, with 10 guilds it would be nearly impossible to have a discussion without all guilds being present and being affected by raid spawns. Almost a week of advance was given to all guilds to come up with a proposal to discuss. This was all they could come up with.