[RF][LJ] For your consideration.

I'd like to thank everyone for participating in this dialogue. As the circular arguments begin I will take my leave. If you have any questions or comments feel free to message me.

You give a flawed analogy. Of course a single person would probably lose against 6 toons, manually boxed or not. But a group of 6 players would most likely not win against 6 nukers that all have simultaneous reaction, on a mob that dies in 4 seconds to the nukes.

you are arguing reaction times. that repeater 6 boxer still has to press target/assist macros and then press the nuke key. you are saying 6 individual people cannot react the same or faster? now if that person is using other 3rd party programs that spam /target and blast macros that a human cannot compete with - that is something different. and guess what you get punished for it if you get caught.

ok hmm one key target the mob, then press the number1 key which then /assists X /pause 5 /cast 1

where as each of 6 indivudals would have to immediately and the same time without coordination target the mob (might have problems there might not) then cast. all 6 would have to cast immediately to match the speed of one person hitting TWO keys vs 12 keys by 6 people. and what if 3 had to afk to take care of kids or the dog? so you don't know who is always at the keyboard. but the boxer with that program does, and two keys he does the same work of 6 people doing the same work.

so then your issue is having to rely on other people paying attention or being as fast as you are? each person in this scenario is pushing 2 buttons, if everyone in that group is paying attention they have just as much of a chance to kill the mob as the boxer.

no my issue is not with people not at the keyboard... it is with one key press activating abilities simultaneously on 6 characters. now DBG accepts this as being 6 individual people touching a single key on each account. I also know it would not be easily detected and hard to enforce because of that. but you are putting it into the wrong focus, you are focusing in on the individual characters. not what the boxer can do with ONE key press where it would take more than that without the program AND generally faster than even 6 individuals can all do the same thing, even with the individual macros. example: person B controls 6 characters without program, person P uses program with 6 characters, and then persons 1-6 are individually reacting.

Person B reacts, takes action on box/window 1 then moves to the next, then action, and so on. generally fast, but will be separate timing.

Person P reacts, hits target, then presses 1 key and milliseconds later all boxes are doing exactly what he programmed.

Visual reaction time (estimated for example only)
Person B has a phenomonal reaction time of .15 seconds.
Person P has a .30 second reaction time.
person 1 has a .40 second reaction time,
person 2 has a .25 second reaction time,
person 3 has a .20 second reaction time,
person 4 has a .30 second reaction time
person 5 has a .35 second reaction time,
person 6 has a .30 second reaction time.

With this you can see that even though person P has 3 tenths of a second reaction time and is slower than the others besisdes person 1 and person 5. so person B will be alt tabbing, using a mouse between windows, and will have to be fast to get all 6 to cast simultaneously. person 1-6 has no chance to cast simultaneously (it will be close) Person P will notice things and due to the speed at which the computer can communicate to all 6 windows will get all six toons casting and acting in unison to be very close to simultaneously.

also with people they have to know exactly what they are doing, what they are going after, know how it looks, acts, where it will be, hit ALL the right keys (I've miss clicked many times what i wanted) it just is improbable to be acting in unison like a program running 6 boxes.

a group is only as fast as its slowest player. players should not be allowed to key broadcast because it gives them an advantage over people with slow reaction times in the game.

yeah why not just clone yourself 17 times and multiply your DPS by 18? that's completely legit and you should be able to do that as many times as you are willing to multiply how much you pay for the game. wait, what? shut up. this is a role playing game. you roleplay a warrior or a mage or w/e, you don't roleplay STAR WARS EPISODE 2, seriously.... at least not without destroying everyone else's immersion and roleplaying experience that you run into. when there's need of it b/c of low population that's 1 thing. with a server as busy as this? no, get out of here, you can't justify your existence. only reason to do it is RMT. disgusting. be ashamed. VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY ashamed.

that is a lot of hate, someone must have hurt you. tell me what the bad man did to you so we can make it better.

I role-play and six box. Each of my characters have their own backstory and stories on how they met. I role-play with others outside of myself, though not too often since people don't tend to role-play much anymore, at least on these servers.

I justify my 6-boxing because I like to have fun. I have said this many times, but I will say it again. I sell nothing to players except for what I make through crafting. Any loot I get is sold to merchants or placed on alts to use when I decide to level them up. I do not pay my six accounts through Kronos, nor do I use Kronos to make purchases. I use plat to purchase from other players items I want that I earned from six boxing and killing and selling their drops. I do not take over anyone elses camps, I don't box an army of Mages, I don't even have one mage. I have no pet classes unless you count Enchanter which I rarely even pull the pet out, or Shaman of which I am not of level for yet. The best DPS I have is from a Wizard. I am not ashamed to play the way I play, because I do not interfere with anyone else. I drop boxes for real people when they ask or sometimes even when I see someone just standing there I will drop a box and invite them.

I box a Warrior, Cleric, Shaman, Druid, Enchanter, and Wizard on the Lockjaw server. My main is my Warrior named Basak. If you are on Lockjaw in the teens/early 20s (currently as of this post anyways) and I am on, ask me for a group, I will very likely invite you to my group, and I will give you a 30 min warning before I leave even if I am leaving before I invite you to group to give you a chance to look elsewhere. I am open to conversation of any type if you don't want to join my group and just want to chat. I am a social person if the conversation intrigues me, I am not an anti-social Dix-Boxer.

yes... but he is the exception... not the rule

Ultimately, it is taking the spirit of what Everquest mechanics used to be, out of the game. Technology to control 6 accounts barely existed in a game setting much less considered when developing the classic version of this MMO.

Its confusing to me how anyone would lack the willpower not to use said technology in this instance with these servers. More so how any would actually deny the exponential advantage and affect it has on a server as a whole.

I'm not saying that this play style negatively affects the server directly. "Negatively" would be largely a case by case/person by person opinion. But it does change the server and everyone elses gameplay drastically overtime whether the 3rd party program user wants to admit it or not. Its contrary to the design of the era in which these servers base the game on. It only "muddies" the water when you introduce arguments of what advantages it may or may not give or different challenges that may or may not come with it.

If its allowed then of course by all means, do what you want with your time ingame. But no one should be surprised if the majority of people think its not what these servers were intended to cater to.

You still don't get it. You are assuming that the non-boxers will have perfect reaction time in every case, every time.

Basically the boxer is setting a very high bar, an artificially inflated bar. Do you know how boxing works? You press 1 key, and immediately 6 characters cast their nuke. Manual control of 6 different characters, with 6 humans controlling, would have to all do the same simultaneously. Not just once, but every time. Sure they could match the boxer maybe once or twice and get lucky, but not every time. This is the problem. On our lovely TLP servers, named mobs die in seconds. Even bosses like Phinny die in less than 8 seconds. Reaction time is a very big deal here. Your response of "well the non-boxers just have to pay attention" is completely missing the point. When it comes down to fractions of a second to start casting or lose, the situation is slanted heavily on a boxers favor.

I'm definarely of the opinion that I wish boxers would be banned. That doesn't make me a jerk either. It's my opinion that boxers are using third party programs to gain a considerable advantage within the game.

People can argue either side of this all the time, but my statement is truth. Now my opinion is just that, opinion, and unless DBG decides to change something that is clearly hurting their game and causing issues within the community then I just deal with it. If it becomes to big of an issue I will just talk with my wallet and leave the game.

Can we start a discussion for Holly to take back and discuss with the team? Who wants a no box server and who doesn't? Why?

Gonna put my two cents in and say I was gung ho for the TLP's until the day they launched and it was a madhouse with box/bot teams. Many of us activated accounts to test out leveling paths with friends before launch and played on beta to get a feel of first week. We took the first week off of work to play and I have to say, I enjoyed four of those five days out in the sun. I quit after the first day because I had tested the strength of a regular group versus a mage group and the regulars were grossly underpowered; I knew where the server was headed just looking at the launch and having played on earlier servers and being familiar with how toxic the servers can be with a PNP, so without one? Nah.

My vote is for one of two things... A 1 account per computer TLP WITH an enforced PNP -OR- a Legends type server with two dedicated GM's (who also do other work around the company to better command a salary) who enforce a PNP.

I would pay double the regular monthly price for either of the above servers and I would buy a 3-year subscription immediately.

What about everyone else, what do you think about a 1 account per computer server? Knowing what you know now, how would you like to see it run?

I'm not sure what my interest would be. I never even boxed til a few years after the game originally came out, and at the time, I just made a SK to help pull singles for my main to solo. Now, I'm doing 3, but mostly because I wanted to have 3 different support classes available later on (i.e. Kunark Velious etc).

On to the topic itself, a no boxing server would take everyone (edit: not everyone obviously, but some classes may find this problem on a constant basis) back to the "can't get a group, can't even box two to at least duo outdoor junk mobs for exp" situation. Is it worth it, still? Perhaps. But I can't help but think a server where they upgrade the litmus test for third party programs from "be at your keyboard and respond" to "must have a clear temporal separation between spell castings of each boxed account" would be the better answer.

Edit: You know how some folks who oppose instancing say "go to WoW or EQ Live servers"? This "no third party program server", the same response would apply to them - if you want third party programs, go to Live, RF or LJ.

Hmmm

I believe they would need a new client to enforce the 1 account per computer policy otherwise it would impact on the other servers. If they are going to all that trouble, then I hope they would take the opportunity of :
1. Toning down the classes that are over powered in the classic era.
2. Bringing back the original zones.

Basically make it closer to how it actually was in 99.

if they are going to attempt a server like this, they need to contact the makers of [unmentioned 3rd party blah blah] so the program cannot be used on this server, as it lets u string multiple computers together accomplishing the same thing they are able to do now. Im sure the makers would like its program to remain usable by people playing EQ on other servers. So I would expect them having no problem with blocking its functionality on said new server.

I don't think most people care about boxers that really manually play their characters, it's easy to see who plays alt-tabbing and who plays with a high level of automation, as every character in sync being played with similar bot like appearance.

I know eqmule, the dev for one of the 3d party tool, that are used for boxing have said he is willing to make sure that tool won't work on a "no boxing allowed server" (not is-boxer, the "other" tool)
Having said that, there are still problems with this:
1. Since it's open source I suppose anyone could bypass that code and box anyway.
2. You have to understand that a VPN will bypass any no boxes rule as well
3. They won't hire gms to enforce it.
4. It would therefor be voluntary to follow the rule but I think most boxers would stay clear of it anyway if they also setup a "boxing encouraged server"