Class Balance

How dare you not be happy with your 1200 dps class defining ability! Looks like we need to add a spinstun component to Savage Spirit.

Why not a mini version of savage spirit lets say 40% of the increase mods that drops when savage spirit is activated as my stance. I really never have played a zerker so i am just going off what i can see. The frenzy increase would compound on a burst fight i would guess and you are talking sustain and not burst. I wouldn't think that you can really balance well around the mobs of this expansion though. We really need imput from devs whether they plan to keep the ultra high ac in future content etc.

How could it compound on burst? I just outlined the skill. None of the major mods effect Frenzy (HHE/Flurry chance/Furious Ramp's AE), and the majority of Frenzy's damage CANNOT critical so it isnt even effected by Savage Spirits critical dmg mod for Frenzy dmg. It would literally be to the order of a 10k increase to Frenzy sustained would translate to ~11-12k increase to burst. If its that imbalancing for Zerkers to receive an additional 30k burst from a Frenzy revamp, than we would be more than willing to take a nerf to our auto-attack burst dps(further decreasing the impact/reliance of ADPS) to compensate.

Simply giving us a smaller version of a burn ability will not help reliance on ADPS, it will disproportionately help raiding Zerkers (frenzy is the same dmg for raiders+groupers), and will likely be much harder to balance considering duration/recast/strength will all need to be tuned for and will always yield different results depending on ADPS vs adjusting the +flat dmg or number of hits on Frenzy and doing the math to make it worth pressing; which will then be consistent in any/every situation.

10k increase to frenzy / 4.6s refresh would add what 2k dps to sustain i dont see how this would really be the amount you would be looking for in an increase in sustain. I was just throwing a suggestion out there. I hope you guys get some type of increase

Forgive my vagueness, I was speaking in terms of DPS with those figures not added dmg and just giving an example of a random increase amount to show the relationship it would have under burst.

Its unfortunate nothing will come of this though as its all very old news and been repeatedly requested for the past 3 expansion beta's to no avail despite no logical reason given as to why its not an acceptable solution to the Devs.

Yeh if it wasnt for blackwolf and ok DPS what would druids be good for... Because it sure ain't healing (in comparison to the other healer classes)

Reptile obv.

If by ok dps you mean glad to get half of whoever is good at that fight. Slow heals, no AE heals, I honestly don't know.

Black wolf, skin, too many debuffs.

Druids obviously need massive boosts.

Exactly what i meant.

Druid DPS is meh whatever. But its less meh whatever then some classes (not many).

And thats a terrible reason for them to not have relevant healing capability (which is their primary objective)

Better dps than bards, shaman, and clerics is something to be quite proud of.

Yeh I guess

Enchanters are in such an amazing place even without the chronohaze ridiculousness. Wizards/casters with all adps without chronohaze are still in a great place. I don't see a reason it needs to stay in its current form. It is only going to cause long term damage - by years end the player base is going to see a massive melee crunch where only high end raid guilds can afford to keep them. With maybe the exception of bst they are already dead in group game.

Alright since nobody else asked yet.

Why the hell are people calling it Chronohaze?

Ain't nobody got time to say Chromatic.

It's too bad beastlords are good with either caster or melee adps classes.

Because Chronohaze sounds like $$, there for it has to be to good.

One of the huge problems in balance between caster dps and melee dps is the reliance on ADPS. More and more and more and more ADPS has been made available to melee dps causing them to be balanced around having perfect ADPS scenarios instead of what they can do on their own without it. Its killer for the group game where melee AREN'T going to have all that precious ADPS and it makes melee dps a lot harder to deal with as it requires a ton of coordination.

On the flipside...casters really haven't had that requirement at all. DPS in raid environments is similar to group environments and their DPS is balanced around what melee can do in perfect scenarios vs what casters can do more or less by themselves. We had a rogue change to a wizard for a while in our raid force...he ultimately changed back but he couldn't believe how little help he required as a wizard. Heck...he didn't even need buffs to be near 100% effective while his rogue is asking 4 classes to buff him every time he dies on a raid.

They either need to shift melee to be LESS ADPS dependent (thereby reducing ADPS and having to find new roles for bards and the other ADPS classes), OR they need to make casters MORE ADPS dependent to balance out the situation, particularly in the group game.

So they are making casters more ADPS dependent. Step 1 = introduce ADPS and make sure it works right. Step 2 is balance the classes around it...they'll get to step 2 next expansion most likely now that they have worked on step 1.

~MrGPAC

As a rogue, the difference between parsing in CotF and TDS is like chalk and cheese. In CotF I've hit 500k dps on a burn before (due to assassinations; rolth IIRC) and can trivially hit 200k. On TDS I'm lucky to break the 100k dps barrier. That is purely down to level (no assassination, decap, headshot, etc) and a massive mob AC boost.

Regarding burst vs sustained though, it's got very blurred, but maybe rightly so. Wiz can sustain a long while and aren't just burst kings any more. Equally so I've seen necros doing huge burst dps - more so than any rogue or berserker can do in current content. On sustained *single target* they're pretty dominant (to the extent of being able to do double the top melee), but if it is an endless stream of short-lived adds then they are weak. There is some balance there at least, albeit fragile.

However it's all a moot point as events have changed. 90% of the time burst is an irrelevance. Nearly all events are long drawn out affairs. Unless there is some small specific part of an event that requires a target to die exceptionally quickly then the overall combined raid dps is what matters the most. Therefore IMO the difference between burst and sustained *should be lessened*. The changes towards this direction have been positive, as has I assume the increase in hp for group and trash mobs so that dots serve more purpose.

The caster vs melee issue is very significant though and I agree with the OP that it's the biggest inbalance in game right now. I'm not joking when I say that sometimes on a single target 5min-ish burn like Captain Tita we'll get enchanters doing more dps than any pure melee. The highest "melee" there is usually ranger, as they are part melee and part spell - the spell part helps then combat the hideous mitigation. When enchanters are beating your melee you know there is a problem (and it's not the melee I can assure you).

I'd rather see the AC on bosses reduced a bit so melee have a chance to catch up and be competitive. Note this can very much be a per boss change, so it's "safe" - no sweeping knee jerk changes, just individual tuning to balance things.

Edit: regarding the glass cannon comments - yes berserkers (and rogues, and apparently bst!) are now glass cannons if you look at the stats, far more so than wiz. When we get fired upon equally (a boss-hug event with ae rampage) you'll see it's the pure melee who are getting beat up more than the int casters. This is the flip side that needs fixing. Melee put themselves is massively greatly danger to do their dps, so they need more tools to survive.

It's unreal the amount of class whine threads there are these days.

Why not just make it simple and ask for all classes to have the same abilities and dps. Isn't that what you really want? /rollseyes

Wow... Learn how to enjoy the game, have fun with your peers and stop being so entitled.