Why Hasn't this been addressed yet?

Yes god forbid the designers of a game would actually want the playerbase to improve to be able to complete content, only if there was event version of nexus and paradox to coddle the playerbase and hold their hand through content because that was before the time of materials and chroma's so they couldn't cosplay a fashion show.


Difficulty aside I would much rather get my money's worth out of a dlc that lasts the entire 5 months than dlc's we get now where everyone is bored after a couple weeks because the content and feats are easy to obtain because they are just the same repeated feats continually.

I stuck through it. I saw what it did to the community. I saw what it did to leagues. I saw what it did to players. It wasn't fun nor good. If you step back and look at it, difficulty might have changed the outcome. It had "okay" stories. I think the alerts were better with story than the raids. I didn't really care for the monsters in them. (Still don't with the new raid.) I just don't think it holds a candle to BFE. Especially in terms to quality of the whole content, not just because of one unique do your own difficulty raid. Which is still the only thing anyone ever talks about with OC. And don't get me started on how terrible the two Iconic Anomalies were... So bad, they've only made a total of 4. They were not being played.

I beat Dox after SoT, which was of course post nerf, post gear adjustment buff. Nexus was the only raid that could be "done" for the general population, but completed was another story. So in the end you were stuck with the two VERY LONG alerts and 2 very annoying IA's. All of these gave very little yield in the way of progression. Because, heaven forbid, vendor gear couldn't be best at the time.

The whole DLC was and still is a mess. They had one of the biggest, if not biggest, content exploits in the game that trivialized their hardest content ever. That resulted in fix after fix after fix that only punished PC platform more. Then it ended up requiring them just just say, "Okay, we'll just nerf it." And they did. Spytle acknowledged that it was too strong and out of order. Should have been last, not first, for the tier. I don't agree. I think if SoT and WotL1 came out before it, it would still be the same problem. The whole exponential gain was the issue.

Anyways...

Go team OC! #amirite?

Eh i beat nexus the first week it came out after many failed attempts, beat dox long before the ceiling incident.. was basically full traces in time by the end of that month, probably within the first 3 weeks i dont think it was as hard as your saying.. i had way to low sp and i beat it as a troll back then, hell now i only have 215 sp and i run the current content non event perfectly fine as a solo troll, i even was a atomic tank for about a year and never faced a challenge i couldnt beat,, thats why i dont get all the fuss about sp, if you put 150-175 in whatever support stat, have all current gen mods and 2 dps artifacts
Your fine.. im a controller now and all i do debuff i dont even really have to dump power really because everyone is prec, healers have artifacts and tanks are kinda self efficient....... but to me its always been like this in my opion even before artifacts

Maybe I'm misremembering (possible since I'm not nearly as invested as most of you appear to be) but I recall voting against LL at least 2x. It's not at a 3rd bracket where it got removed right?

Again, it's just a poll. I don't think it matters to most players outside of this specific thread and I don't think it'll hurt the trust players have in the Devs at all. It won't build any either tho so w/e. This is all just drama.

I have to agree with this statement to a some extent. Coming from someone who was actually getting Nexus and Paradox done I could still see the destruction it was causing to the community that existed prior to this during Tier 4. But this is why sometimes you've got to take your rose tinted glasses off and look at it from the other perspective.

OC pushed out massive groups of the community, It's all good and well to just tell players to "get better" which does have an element of truth to it, but you can't just destroy your community at the expense of that ideal.

Balancing content is always a delicate act and although I personally thought the raids were somewhat well designed, particularly Nexus, they were not balanced in a way that catered to the required number of players they really needed too, certainly not in the fashion the FOS raids, or gates and Prime were, which had come before them.

Funny how you enjoy Nexus, as Nexus was the one that everyone who loved the DLC said was lame and too easy. It was the only one that at least I and a few of my league mates could beat. (Though, we came up with the 1 hour rule to avoid fighting the frustration of last boss.) It also had a few exploits in it and a hell of a lot of visual bugs.

In any case, there needed to be balance with content vs difficulty. They've done a good job of at least doing that, but I wish they wouldn't put progression behind it, but that's for another conversation.

In the end, we have elite content and normal content. This does give help towards that point. There are still some balancing needed, but it's gotten a lot better in that term.

In the case of this thread, there are shady problems happening with the voting system, but it's no big deal. The producers of the game know what they are looking for and will see it.

Imagine spending years telling the community and Devs how to make a game. Telling Spytle to cater to players wanting extreme hard so they would profit$$; then him giving you exactly what you wanted with Origin Crisis and it subsequently tanking in sales and driving away players like it did.... and you still pretending like it was all good years later.

Hey, did you hear? The CEO, Jack, announced they'll be adding new powersets! Great news for the community right?! Guess he also thinks the game needs to keep adding new powersets if it's going to keep going and stay fresh. Hopefully Panderus liked the points I made about keeping costs low and ways to recover some of those development resources when they do get around to working on the new ones.

If you go to the announcements thread for this, and scroll down the original bracket is on a post somewhere...1st or 2nd page. I only know this because when LL was removed I went back to make sure I wasn't crazy and saw the original picture, so (unless they removed that post too) it should still be there and it was LL vs HT then winner of that vs LLL.

Yep, it's just a poll and nope, many people won't really care. However as somewhere near the beginning of the poll it seemed like maybe the winner would pay off with some sort of either spotlight or maybe something highlighting that episode(can't remember if that was put out by devs or us...the fourms), it would be nice if the winner was legit voted on by the people who took the time to vote. It would be really sad if LLL won it all through mysterious means then we hear how "since you enjoyed LLL so much we'll be doing LLL2 and 3 this year...with even more OW bounties!!"....probably not, but I shudder at the potential.

People always say Paradox was better, in my opinion, because it was seen as the pinnacle of the content, it was the big boy raid, way I see it though unfortunately is that it was a steaming mess.

It was riddled with bugs at times and had loot hidden behind certain boss variations and in addition the loot was ommitted from the table altogether until we're told later "oh the drop rate is just so low, we've bumped it up". It was so low to the point where it was absolutely non existent on the server, nobody had certain pieces, it unfortunately felt purposeful given how long it was absent from the DLC.

That alone is probably enough to leave me incredibly jaded about the OC DLC despite any of its positives. It honestly felt like they were just stealing our replay badges.

In terms of Nexus, in my opinion despite the fact I know it had a few bugs, it just felt cleaner as a raid, less chaotic and didn't have the loot issues. it still had reasonable challenge and was just a more overall pleasant experience

I did enjoy the challenge of doing EO in dox at the time don't get me wrong, but I think at times you just need to step back and look at it with a little more neutral objectivity.

BTW, I'd like to point out this 'get better' practice is still going on today, just in Elite content vs the regular Paradox raid. However the difference then vs now is that then, 'Get better" meant getting SP and refining your moves. "Get better" today means "go spend money on artis, augs and replays so you can keep up with the Jonses and we don't have to actually work to get things done".

Honestly I'd take the old 'get better' vs the new one but yes. Neither are good for the community overall.

OOF. And there it is.

While the idea of artifacts are a cool addition to the game. They are most definitely a crutch to some.

Dare I say it with a degree of one off candour, but the elite community in this game can at times only be described as "incredibly toxic" our attitude towards other players at times where we approach it with a mentality of "get good", "you're just a scrub, stay in event content" can only really be described as quite appalling. Especially when a lot are just opening wallets, buying artifacts, switching powers when content demands it and buying time capsule feats and cosmetics to control the economy amongst other things.

GU36 and The PvP Changes at stats revamp pushed out WAY more of the community then OC ever did. The PC server was a ghost town around when the first Oan Survival Mode came out, there wasn't even a PC group that got to round 10, it was all PS players. I don't need to go into detail about the pvp side, that entire community was cast out.

Players leaving and never returning because of OC is the lies that are perpetuated by members of the community that felt personally attacked by Spytle's words of "get better" and that felt ostracized by the community as a result, sound familiar at all? What actually drove players away from the game that was actually acknowledged by later development teams was the changes Spytle made during gu36 leading through WM/AM which is the entire reason we had to start over again during a year long stats revamp, which in turn destroyed pvp which also drove players away from the game. If you leave and quit the game over 1 DLC episode than that is pretty telling about that player personally.

You can pin you comment or save the date because I am not holding my breath that we'll see a new powerset anytime remotely soon, so you can remind yourself to ask Jack again in the producers letter for 2022 where that new powerset is.

Sure, I didn't intend to imply OC was the only thing that's ever pushed out players, just that it did and it was a lot of players, whether it was more or less than any other event is probably fairly open for debate.

What we refer to as "elitist" is an open book, those players aren't hard to read, they just want content that will be challenging and engaging to them to keep a vested interest in the game. If you can complete content without actually needing to think and you are just pressing buttons what does that do for a player like that? nothing.

It's the "casuals" that are much harder to read. There is not a single elite raid that has been released in years that can't be easily explained and have the mechanics completely avoided. The batcave raids had more mechanics than the elite raids we do now. Why don't those players care about wanting to get better? do they only play the game to look cool with their materials and chromas and make cosplay flash toons? Those players will cry and scream and raise pitchforks on the forums if elite content is too hard for them, despite event and regular being completely available and not only that but cater to them, but no the mentality that ANYTHING in dcuo is required to be achieved by anyone is WAY MORE elitist than anything I could say. Those players demand elite should be easy enough to get the feats, the rare drops, SM should be easy enough for everyone to get the trinket unlocks or higher round styles. Show me any "elite" player that says make event or regular hard or that this part of event should be harder or this mechanic in regular should be harder.... you won't find any such talk, but elite feedback will be flooded with nerf requests or entire threads on the forums saying TAKE AWAY NO DEATH FEATS because those players don't want to take any sort of ownership to actually get better at the game and want everything spoon fed them. That is toxicity and what hurts DCUO's progression, not end game players wanting a piece of the pie to be challenging, because how dare they ask for that? right?

Yeah, it's always been that way, just there's more content to do it in now and more items to use to exclude people (artis, augs, powers, movement, SP) whereas it used to just be SP and CR, so it just seems worse I think. I'm all for telling someone that they need to learn how to do their roll correctly, or that one guy who can't break his rotation long enough to block a one shot having to be picked up constantly or biffing a 'no death' feat...those are instances where you really do need to 'get good'...or better at least. It's the new practice of exclusion on the fact you don't have your OP/Elite this or that...or 23 head mods...or the 200 artis...or you are not running the meta build for your role/power. All things that should NOT be needed to beat the content, only to make it easier or faster...but all people want is easier and faster, that's why the LFG is full of shouts for 'LF X role for SFFE/COUE, pst with artis/augs/SP...EXP only". But then these same people complain about how easy the content is....so ? Damned if you do...damned if you don't I guess.

Sure the toxicity can go both ways, what I've always said to you though Chill and I know we don't necessarily agree is that there's a balance in all of it and I don't think we're ever going to avoid entirely some players being able to just press buttons without thinking, no matter how hard or easy the content is perceived as being, they're just awesome players, that's all there is too it, that's just the reality of the fact the audience for elite isn't 1% of the player base it's maybe 5% for example (that's a numerical example, please don't consider it a definitive fact). What I mean by that too is that all those people in that 5% are still good players but they're by no means equal to each other either.

There are some times when legitimate nerfs are required, because the reality is some content can simply be tuned too difficult and that will often become evident in completion rates and the likes and no doubt the developers are making those decisions in the background based on data they have that we don't. At the end of the day they're trying to balance content around what players require to receive the necessary challenge but also not making players feel disenfranchised, leaving the game and ultimately resulting in a revenue loss (which is what happened with the players who left solely because of OC, however many that might be)

In terms of normal content. I actually do think Normal content is too easy and should be buffed. part of the problem is that players aren't being appropriately challenged even in normal content and they're then not ready for elite at all. In fact I'd often go as far as saying the difference between event content isn't much different from regular content at times and this isn't helping anyone.

Event content should be really easy, it's for level 10's and those of us that might be running late for the week and just smashing out some marks lol, but normal content should pose much more of a challenge than it does and should be closer to elite content than it currently is. The gap between normal and elite is too great in my opinion.

I also don't think feats need to be nerfed, I think they need to be made realistic from the offset, as in there shouldn't be bugs preventing players from getting them, but I absolutely agree they shouldn't nerf them and in fact there's no real need to do so in a game that allows us to progressively out level something to make the feat easier later in the future where necessary, nerfing a feat is entirely unnecessary (I don't agree with taking away no death feats by the way).

I do think sometimes people can get a little hung up on feats, but I understand they're a carrot for many players and that's entirely okay, they're after the achievement and the bragging rights, which is perfectly fine, I think that's why some people get upset and ask for nerfs, because again if we're being honest, it's just bit of old fashioned envy, I'd probably take the request for a nerf as a compliment lol

The reality is once you've got over 500SP, hell probably even less the returns you're getting from feats and SP is incredibly diminishing unless you're playing in particular ways or an outlier power type that might benefit from additional trees more greatly, so these people probably need to relax a little more and stop worrying about trying to "chase the joneses" because it's not really that big of a deal.

I for example have over 590SP, yeah I don't have all the feats, nor do I really care, because for the reasons just explained I've stopped caring, that and I choose to often spend my time differently in game rather than spending 4 hours in a piece of content trying to get a feat, that's a personal choice of course but I'd never say take away the no death feats simply because I subjectively can't be bothered with it.

In terms of the mindset of a "casual player" they simply don't care about getting better, you've said it yourself and we both know it, they play the game for cosplay reasons, they want to have fun, they want to relax, they want to dress up as Wonder Chroma Batman and they don't care about beating elite. In fact in their ideal world everything would be an event, because the less time they spend in raids and more time they spend admiring their character taking screenshots the better.

However, the pressure does come on when they see "Bling Bling, Enhanced Teen Titan Robin gear" locked behind elite content that they really really want and the knives come out.

That isn't to say it isn't unreasonable to provide a meaningful reward in elite content but is rather just an acknowledgement of the reality that doing so is going to suddenly draw the attention of more casual players that either don't care about getting better, don't have the time to dedicate to get better or simply can't get better wanting those rewards.

The answer is they obviously wait until they can out gear the content and complete it, but their approach will be, "I want it now, so please nerf the content so I can get it", although being an entirely unreasonable expectation of theirs it is also entirely unsurprising.

This is why, in my view, I've always thought stripping styles away from elite is a better course of action not because I don't think it doesn't deserve to be there, but, that I'd rather not have that friction between elite and casual players in terms of things that are entirely cosmetic.

You're entirely entitled to disagree with this position, I'm not asking you to agree, but I think elite players generally tend to care more about stats, achievements (feats) than they do about the fact some lines on their Batman suit glow, hell most of us are covering out gear with Chroma's now, elite gear styles are largely entirely redundant in any case.

I really do think a lot of this "toxicity" as we call it stems from a reward system feeding into peoples desires to play dress up and when you're locking some of that behind a wall whatever that wall might be, time capsules, elite content, then people are going to become a bit upset and this will lead to a few things, such as asking for nerfs or even quitting the game because they feel unappreciated, rightly or wrongly.

100% agree, the elite community is very unforgiving. everyone has to follow a meta, everyone has to be this or that, if you're a healer in a certain raid you must be electric. If you want to beat SM we only want water healers...

Some of this should also squarely be blamed on development as well though, because when you design content with such glaring imbalances that continue to favor certain power types or create artifacts that are so over powered any person running elite is simply never going to touch anything other than 3 or 4 you're kind of creating the very situation we're complaining about and in fact an entirely contradictory situation from what you're in other places attempting to sell to the player base.

Artifacts for example are being sold as "a variety of different play styles" choose your artifacts and play the style you want basically based on your choices, choices I might add that require a significant time or monetary investment, but the reality is who are we kidding, you can't do that at all, if you're wanting to run elite content then that flexibility simply doesn't exist and it's certainly not worth building artifacts just to have a bit of fun in regular content. Then there's the issue of new artifacts just forcing people to move or change artifacts and seemingly at times developing content around those new artifacts they've just introduced where it can become a race to get those new artifacts to make current content easier or to achieve a feat for example where the artifact makes that easier to do.

List of issues go on really, we could probably discuss it forever

Hmm so you managed to complete the full traces in time when?

So you were the only person playing the game that managed to get the missing piece of gear in that content?

Oh right, my statement about hindsight is a complete joke.

B is right about that content.

I could have thrown in that I to beat nexus, without using the rafters or duel glitch when after it was released aftert they took out dueling.

I actually agree with B about the alerts, I felt that they did not need to touch the alerts.

I totally agree with you on your statements.

I also disagreed with them as well, but as I recalled the response I got was they were concerned about people having friends play content for the first time and they didn't want to give them a rough time.

Which is why I attempted and obviously failed to compare it to previous raids.

People would get kicked for trying to even attempt to join in those raids, you literally had to have a group carry you through them and even then they could struggle with the top gear in the game.

After SOT everyone was able to beat Dox, nexus was a push over, but just like league halls people would leave when they discovered a tough last room, superboy plaque I believe.

As I said before, it was acknowledge by the dev's, only a few could complete dox, more could beat nexus, but those raids being exploited, the way the gear was initially setup, the way it was handle afterwards, all of it was done bad and only became a favorite for so many after they were able to steamroll it getting pay back for all the struggling without success.

I actually watched low CR/low SP try nexus. My other half stayed in there after a failed attempt just to see how many would come in there.

Long story short 8 hours later people were still jumping in there and they couldn't get past where we left off and actually did a whole lot less.

Again being honest is always frowned upon especially when there are feelings involved. Even as I acknowledge that there were small pockets of groups, not as many as some would make it out to be, that did manage to beat dox, again nexus was totally doable, but I have only seen the elite be able to accomplish such feat and they got recognized by the dev's and still do.

Not new though for this game.

It goes both ways as well.

People always complaining about not being able to get into a select group, not really realizing that you never really need to join with them to get things done.

The problem is reading and practice, making or meeting new people, getting over the fact that in order to succeed you have to invest time in learning your own power, then join up with others with the same goals.

So many just want to join up with others that they see as a superstar or a beast, idolizing them as if it will change their success rate to run with the group.

I actually enjoyed FNL, it gave leagues an opportunity to test themselves, they would bring in their alphas and see how far they can go.

Bring it back, please.