What made PvP great Vs. What we have now

I can block, counter and lunge just fine. Maybe you should take a look at what you're doing and try something different. And, nooo you still could not block certain combos then. Yeah Immunities...LOL. You've never boxed, wrestled, MMA, played tackle football, soccer, basketball or any contact sport for that matter. If you have, you would understand that immunities have no place in an action fighting game. People that push Immunities are as bad as the kids that try to make up their own rules because they loose all the time. Try telling a MMA fighter that his opponent has immunities during a match and see if he does not laugh in your face. Like I said Immunities are for kids that try to make up the rules because they cant hang.

Reggie White was being blocked by two guys here and immunities are nowhere to be seen.



Or should he have to wait a few seconds because he was being blocked? 1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi xD

ROFL!!! Leoimy I told you he would do it again.

I want my 10 bucks !

I agree 100% about SP...(and about stat clamping..not a fan either)

All this talk about removing character progression is bulls@#t..This game is all about progression and building up our characters..and PvP should be no different because they are our characters. Character progression should not be removed from PvP. There should be no discussion about this. If a new player wants to compete in PvP they need to build their character up just like everyone else. What happened to putting some time and effort into leveling up? When I started playing it was just understood.

There are other things that can be done to help new players along, like reducing the cost of PvP gear..at least the first couple levels of gear for instance.

Nor do you see those athletes flying or building supercharges, right?? I don't see how your realworld comparison is even remotely related to the mechanics of a VIDEO GAME. Be more logical within your future rebuttals, will you? Besides, I don't see whats so wrong with rewarding players for countering their opponents, like, literally can someone please tell me how the immunity system is problematic, even if you were against it being "lessened"

I can accept if people find it too drastic that pvp gear does not count entirely.

Then the current gear system can remain. Just:
- reduce cost to $1.5k to make it just a little bit easier for premiums.
- allow F2P to buy only up to CR98 gear. CR99 and above is restricted until player is premium or subscriber.

As for SP, now that, I can call ********. If SP becomes too significant, you can have cases where people dump extreme amounts of $ on Time Capsules to earn close to max SP, be extremely bad but still get to earn CR101 pvp gear (cos the current system rewards losers with marks) and have a significant advantage over someone with 200+ SP only as that someone else does less PVE compared to PVP.

If you are gonna want character progression, then limit it to SP earned from PVP feats only. Otherwise, it makes it a joke to allow SP - earned by throwing $ - be counted in Pvp.

Now you're trying to move the goalposts in order to justify your argument about wanting free attacks in a superhero/villain fighting game. We are not talking about super charges. We are talking about players wanting free attacks and extra damage from those free attacks.

I can't tell what you mean by saying "free attacks".Because last time I checked you actually have to earn immunities by countering opponents.Im sure it made pvp more mechanic heavy than how it is now.Or do you consider spamming 1,2,3,4,5,6 and then 1,2,3,4 once more, harder?

Sorry bud I don't spam and like I said, " immunities have no place in a fighting game. " if you want to use crutches go play Smash Brothers.

Oh, so you lose.

LOL, sure I lose but I don't lose every time or even half of the time. It all depends on the groups. You're just angry because you are being beaten by guys that took the time to figure things out. How many PVP builds do you have? I have at least 4 PVP builds and I change them up depending on the people I am playing against. Then If it really gets tough I plug in my either net cord, use wired controllers and then adjust the sensitivity on my controllers. If you think you only need one load out and there are no other variables then you are never going to figure things out.

Edit*
Do you like water in PVP or do you think that power sucks in PVP too.

Wrong. Haven played x hours, days, years of whatever game gives your player's perspective some value, but in the end giving players what they want is what brought and still brings many games to the edge of their extinction, and that does include the PvP in DCUO to some extend. When the devs offered open dialogue, the players showed very specifically that they have no single agreed upon opinion about what and how specific things should be changed. No wonder the devs gave up on that.

Now, x hours of gameplay do not grant you any weight on actual game design questions, as of balance, systems, structures etc. as well as wants vs needs, when to deny players their wishes for the good of the game etc. If you want to work at a gas station you can't come up with having refueled your car at self-service stations for years as "job experience" either. Qualification is not subjective, qualification is based on facts. And facts are not a matter of a majority vote, just to point that out to the internet- and social-media-generation.

What is subjective, however, is your list of fun and not-fun in PvP. Fact is: only a minority of players always participated or enjoyed PvP at any time, even at the "great" times (Spytle posted numbers, the ones longer around in the forums will remember even if they dislike this fact). So even at its "great" times, the PvP in DCUO was already lacking. Which is usually the reason why devs start to change things around.

On a subjective sidenote, we agree on things being worse. I do not agree on your solution approach, however. Especially not on the point of keeping PvE and PvP as much apart as possible: the result is players who enter randomly from PvE will find a high learning curve required and just lose interest in that very moment again. Good game design nowadays is about low initial hurdles to reach masses, not some self-proclaimed elites - which is something these "elites" don't want to get into their heads Masses pay back for the efforts invested in design, elites can value the quality (and there aren't many quality products around when it comes to PvP anyways) but rarely keep a game running on their own.

On another subjective sidenote, all these "fix the broken combat/broken stuff" regarding balances in weapons and powers and classes etc. may just be the wrong approach. The content type - Red vs Blue in terms of mainly pin each other down, rarely "do mission goals" - has not been found attractive by the majority of players already, so it may be time to come up with something way different in points of maps and content. Agreed upon that this may have the effect of attracting new players first who then get turned away by said broken stuff

Well,i wouldnt say im angry since Im only playing Lpvp after stats revamp came out.Thats because arenas dont require any actual skill,you dont even have to block/roll/lunge/blockbreak/kite anymore.

I also dont know why youre mentioning different loadouts,that was always a thing,but do those loadouts require more skill than countering an opponent?Wired controller,really?You know it would make your life a lot easier if you just spammed like everyone else.

I really dont care about water in pvp,at the moment i dont care about any powers in pvp.Water doest suck in pve btw.

The thing is you said that revamp made pvp better.How do you justify your opinion?To me its like saying the eye of gemini isnt broken and then you prove it by saying "look as long as you dont use it,its balanced".

1.Blue immunity.
2 . Gear and sp mattering less
3. AMs
Are what killed Pvp. In that order.

Ok wow lol.

First of all, the true reason toward pvp not getting fixed is not because of the players. One of the reasons, yeah sure. But lets not going around acting like pvp players are at fault.

Second, I don't think your view of what qualifies as "good game design" is right. Even with a playerbase that wants everything handed down to them or just those type of gamers, never has a game been rewarded as good game design or seen beneficial results for lowering a skill ceiling. Matter fact, its the exact opposite. Example #1 being Dcuo itself currently.

Third, I wanna see this information that pvp only had minor participation even at the "great times" and spytle words, because I have information that says the complete opposite.

You're really spewing out things that lets me know your uneducated. Matter fact, half way through your post I have no idea wth your even saying.

If you don't like pvp and want to see it ridden, you can just say that ya know.

Who's talking about "lowering a skill ceiling"? I'm talking about learning a totally different game inside a game, because that is what PvP and PvE apart will result in. And that's the sort of hurdle that is repulsive towards the majority of players. It also hinders the easier adaption of hybrid content, like having legend toons and regular toons on the same map etc. without the one or the other being automatically in advantage per system design.

Back when all the alert maps were adopted to work with Legends PvE, that was one significant hint at what is wrong. The legend toons should have been fixed so they work on the actual alert maps (at CR), not the maps been scaled to be beatable with the legend toons.

Feel free to search the forums. It was posted here, not on some other website.

Yeah, I realized that you don't get it....

Not the case. You know, in its current state people would just need to ignore any PvP complain threads and the thing with getting rid off it was never closer than now. Actually, I want to see greater and bigger content for PvP, even suggested an exclusive open world zone for it long ago. If I had the choice to get rid of something, it's the current PvPers with their limited understanding and idea of the "I don't want mission goals, I just want to kill other players"-kind. You know, the ones who enter PvP and duel because they think it's a good way to compare their virtual manhood....

You just talked about low initial hurdles to reach masses before you blacked out and started spazzing on elite players before you finished your point. You can make one game mode more accessible than the other, but you have to choose the right game mode and not only that, making that mode more accessible is not guaranteed that players are going to love it. Because tell you what, Pve and Pvp has already been made more accessible for the masses. What good has that done for the game now currently?

Besides, Pve and Pvp will always be apart of each other. At least philosophical wise. No player should not go into pvp expecting to play like they are in pve and vice versa. Thats for any game that allows pvp multiplayer. Now dcuo can add in more elements like Origin Crisis Bizarro last boss. Before they nerfed the robot, it was guaranteed to do 3 of the feint counter mechanics: Block, lunge, Block Break. And you couldn't dps him down without successfully countering him. Those are the good type of low initial elements the devs can do to entice players to try, but then we're not even including balance and the broken system and thats just a whole mess itself

Oh that whole look it up myself thing huh. Well tell you what.



Thats a pretty bold thumbnail to have right there, ain't it. They discuss it somewhere in there. Feel free to watch it through.

Trust, I would get rid of them too. The current now pvpers have no idea what GOOD pvp was like. Same for the current so called elitsit that people keep bringing up for pve. Those guys are a pain too and only reaching ranks because of how much the game been giving hand me downs. Well at least you revealed to have some good intentions for pvp. Thats all I needed.

It is still running in the first place. The first "make it more accessible"-move was stepping down from subscription only and adding micro transfers, because at that point DCUO was facing "death" already for the first time since the "masses" simply didn't do subscription anymore.

Now that the devs for some reason cannot turn that money into promising content for PvE is another thing. It says a lot when the "key"/stabilizers are a backbone income of a game.

But PvP is another thing. It is a minority content, always has been (thx for the Vid btw, that was absolutely the numbers I had in mind) and thus getting money into the minority content is always tricky. But the roughly 25% of the population by now shrinked down to maybe 5%, maybe 10% if queue times are really faster on US servers than on EU. That's the sort of numbers that makes asserting money to it really hard. So the concern should be in raising these numbers and not feeding the couple of folks left with an extra spoon. Which brings us back to the initial hurdles. It's BTW recurring in discussion in both PvE and PvP. PvE lost SM due to numbers like that. The challenge level discussion for elite content has the same background.

You cannot except a struggling game company to come up with niche player content.

Disagree. Games that allow the PvE section be solved with tactics not working on the PvP end just have a bad or by choice limited AI. An example would be the mid-existence Gran Turismo Sport. Designed as an eSports platform focused on PvP racing, there was lots of initial fuzz, but after some finetuning for a period of time it worked and people who were able to beat the AI/time limit on certain tracks in single player/offline were also able to win races in multiplayer/online. Then some folks found out how to exploit the penalty detection and combined with the counter-update the online/tournament part became unplayable, and still is, at least for clean/non-exploiting racing.

Oh, we for sure agree on the whole mess thing. The problem is the "masses" this game attracts. We don't have lots of players here who consider the conception of "block, lunge, block break" as easy or "low initial hurdles". We have players in elite content who don't block, at all. We have devs adding a pile of crates to a certain room of the tutorial because a lot of players where overwhelmed with the instruction to turn on their movement mode there.

"Low" is a relativ perception. What you and me consider shenanigans may be or look like rocket science to some of those players stuck in the movement moder room.

Yes thanks. 22.8% is a minority, no matter how much euphemism is applied to make it look big. Agreed: it was a bigger minority than ever interested in SM or running elite content. Also, due to feats and styles etc. ("rewards") attached, some players just run/ran PvP for that, not because of enjoying it. IIRC, the forums brought these numbers when discussing the "no reward for slackers"-thing back then.

These intentions didn't make any impact by now. Last time content type was discussed, a lot of PvPers made it clear that they wanted the tournament-style "enter, kick-behinds, win, rub-it-in, repeat" approach. And that is something Mr. Casual will not enjoy in any way, and thus not useful when it comes to increasing participation numbers again. Which is needed if PvP was ever to make a comeback of any kind. DCUO is run by an investment company for some time now, and they pick projects that brings money back in.

And that is why I say the PvP game can't differ too much from PvE. Not if it is meant to attract a number of Mr. Casuals who would still be in the "activate movement mode"-room of the tutorial without the crates been added the devs back then....

Just because it is running, doesn't mean that things are fine. Especially with how easy it is for people to shell out money for a style behind a rng paywall. We wouldn't be having discussions about improving the game then if things were fine because the game is running. If people see the game as fine now then they are either new or have really low standards that is unhealthy for any game.

From a game that is centered around Pve, Pvp, and Roleplayers. 25% is a respective amount for a community at the time by its own. Especially when the biggest PRs for the game were the key youtubers, and pvp being a highlight that started FNL that people so called loved. Just watching it is entertaining by itself. Pvp impacted the game more than players are trying to down play it.

I too can make up what the casuals would like but ima go to something I can really speak about. Im noticing some patterns here. Firstly, I can easily make up what a past thread said and what casual players would/ would not like, so unless we got some clear thread names here, lets end this whole I know what they want jib.

Secondly, for anything to come we have to increase the participation first???? Is everybody having memory loss now or something. How do you think we got to where we are in the first place. If you wanted participation or just the population in general to increase, then the devs have to play their part as well. Why is it always the answer of how to get more people to pvp rather than what needs to be fixed first. You underestimate the number provided for 2014. Let me ask you would that number increase or decrease if the devs were to stay on top of pvp with good updates/fixes or just any updates at all?

For the past 5 years players have been giving the devs all the information they needed to keep pvp together that they just had to take initiative on. Now all of a sudden the game is in desperate mode for money to stay afloat and when talking pvp yall wanna ask whats the return value back for if they do work on pvp?? Well that should've been done years ago. They have noone to blame but themselves for the low participation and "low probability" of investment returns. Yeah there was a warlike pvp discussion that happen years ago, but that was what it was and both sides learn from that after the neglect for pvp, and since then came together to agree on updates that pvp need.

Same thing happen for SM, same thing happen for LPVE, same thing happening for Pve. If you don't stay on top of a game mode and polish it then expect low participation rates and be forever thirsty for money to keep the lights on. Also, this game has been implementing low hurdles accessibility for players for YEARS. You said it first, crates, AMs era, low difficulty of pve content, basically able to play pvp like your playing pve (PftT spam, weapons that can't be countered). Everything you're mentioning about making the game more attractive more mr. casual has been put in already, and we ended up in a worse state then what you are predicting to help. If your answer is still the game is running, then I want no part in this zombie game and I hope daybreak puts a bullet through its head here the way they been running things apparently.

Nobody needs a history lesson again on DCUO Pvp, unless its specific DCUO PVP proposals drawing on past DCUO pvp mistakes.

All this back and forth, its been done ad nauseam.

Those percentages are skewed to make the numbers look good.

First of all. We have to remember who was running DCUO at the time.

Secondly............ 22% of level 30's????
At most........... 95% of the players that start DCUO make it to level 30.
22% of 5% equals roughly 1% of the players that try DCUO play PVP. A grand total of about 1%.

That was not ever good as far as numbers go. And, TBH. That is worse than I thought.

Last but and not least.
That video was before SOE 2015. After SOE 2015 is when DCUO's PVP was tossed into the dumpster and set on fire. Players and others pushing their own agenda because they couldn't hang are what got PVP to where it was before the revamp. The Revamp reversed a lot of that old garbage and rightfully so.

What is hurting DCUO's PVP more than anything right now are the toxic attitudes towards that part of the game that are allowed to keep going.