What made PvP great Vs. What we have now

I've never really been on the forums that much or have given my opinion on things in this game even when I've felt deep about them. So why would I start now?

Well, I've noticed how much things have changed in the game for a long time now, specifically 2 years ever since Stats Revamp launched. But I'm just saying this now because I honestly don't know how long it will be before my opinions and views will be completely pointless, maybe it's not even that relevant now.


What makes me so certain that I know what I'm talking about? Well it's just a video game in the end so qualification becomes a very subjective matter, but I've had about 4 years of experience in this game. I'd say I've PvPed enough since 2014 when I started this game, all the way past stats revamp. I did mostly arena up to a certain point before focusing more on legends, and I've fought against quite a diverse and vast range of players. Not going to name anyone in particular because that's not what this thread is about. But here's what is about:


What always made PvP great (from my perspective):

• The Counter-Reward System: Countering is what made PvP challenging, and it is the driving core behind this game's combat mechanic. Choosing one of several skills from your power type into your loadout? That's nothing new. The countering system in DC is well balanced because of it's reward and punishment system. Counter immunity prevented you from taking other incoming damage as well as preventing your opponent from using a sudden unpredictable breakout and ruining your opportunity to deal burst damage while they are down.

• Big Damage and Support Power: I know what some of you must be thinking. Big damage and support power? Weren't things like one-shots, and over-powered healing the root cause of imbalance in Arenas? I agree, in 1v1, 2v2 and open-world situations this became a big problem that could only be half stopped by the PvP revamp. However, when it came to 4v4, 5v5 and greater party battles bigger support and damage numbers made things all the more fun. It required the team as a whole to cooperate better, and created an intensity. PvP update fixed the one shots, but kept team arena relatively the same and if not more enjoyable than before.

• Legends PvP: Many people simply don't care about legends PvP, but for a lot of players that were really into PvP, legends was a great way to evade the imbalance of different power types, gear and skill points. It was a great way to focus on countering while you have a similar enough loadout, health bar and power bar to your opponent, this is especially true in mirror matches.

What we have now:

• Near Non-existing Counter Immunity: Counter-immunity goes by so quickly now that the great reward-punishment system that made PvP great is practically gone now.

• Arena is only for the PvErs now: To do well in arena you need a good deal of skill points, which is primarily due to stats revamp's new ability trays. This requires you to have at least some history of PvE which means your putting more of a force than ever before to get people to do something they may not be interested in just to engage in PvP.

• New PvE Mechanics in PvP: The new shields mechanic allow complete invulnerability to damage, and some shields can even reflect that damage effortlessly back at their opponent. Stacking power and might can eventually make you an unstoppable continuously shielding or healing monster, the latter is particularly more unstoppable. Electric heals for example allows you to spam rampantly, and with the high power regeneration and artifacts you can't be beat. Not only that but with low awkward the mechanics are group arena is nothing like it used to be. Lets not forget, however, that the devs have at least fixed Fire Tank and reduced the effectiveness of shielding to a certain degree in the past.

• Legends is Bugged: There were many unnecessary changes made to legends characters, other than the obvious mechanic changes in general. For example, all of Cheetah's damage decreases by a drastic amount when her health is at or below around 35% HP. A lot of abilities also don't heal or work like they used to. Also consider the fact that we haven't had a new legend in more than 2 years.

So what? What's my point here? Overall PvP has more than suffered greatly since stats revamp. Whether it be changes that may have been an accident or were intentional there is no doubt that PvP is in a state of ruin.

I saw Mepps' post from August about potential future PvP changes, and I understand completely where he comes from. Revenue is important, and PvP doesn't really help with that as much as PvE content does, but the changes made to PvP seem like they completely give up anything most PvP enthusiasts actually enjoyed, instead opting for a more PvE oriented one. I have doubts about whether this is effective either at generating profit to make this game better, since it seems like losing a sheer number of (paying) members that came for PvP first in this game would be a bigger loss than the potential gains from the changed system. But if I give Mepps the benefit of the doubt, then here's what I think could actually be done to uplift PvP.


Potential Goals:

- Fixing Mechanics - Seriously bringing back counter immunity and bringing back the old weapons mechanics of this game would be enough of a blessing at this point. I don't know which players have argued in the past that counter immunity ruins the game, but counter reward-punishment system is what made PvP in this game unique. Any active PvPer who focused on PvP knew that the best way to a win in general for the longest period of time was by finding the counter on your opponent, which required caution, anticipation and good reaction even if it was messy at times or not very tactical. This is not the case always of course, but the most "PvP-centric" players would all undoubtedly agree that it is an important part of PvP mechanics.

- Distancing as Much as Possible PvP and PvE - Potentially a later focus can be finding a way to remove the spam abuse that has come from the new stats revamp mechanics, as well as the shields and heals. Basically just finding anyway to separating PvP mechanics from PvE mechanics would be better for PvP. I understand that may not be great for PvErs, but if more players return for their old system the more they might consider getting a membership or spending money for other things.

- Discerning Between Helpful Complaints and Self-Interested Ones - A good way to not give in to constant complaints about what should be allowed and what shouldn't is to design the game with some basic rules and ideas. You should set-up some standards for what PvP should always be like, and these standards should be unbreakable, but also well-considered and not completely limiting. By choosing to make the counter reward and punishment system an essential part of all PvP, it becomes something novice and veteran players alike will have to learn to accept and adapt instead of making nit picky changes based on whether they can do something or not.

Ending: I understand at this point you may be tired of hearing these arguments over and over again, but please considering reading this and thinking to yourself what really made PvP great. Also consider whether this new PvP state is really going to be worth it in the long run. Please criticize me if I made any bad points or missed some big ones, I know I couldn't cover everything. This is just my one out-of-nowhere attempt to get a message out about a game that I cared about a lot, and had a lot of great memories and experiences in. Most people have moved on, but I at least have to try and see if my message can do or mean anything.

Everything you mention with regards on potential pvp fixes is moot.

Why? Because there isn't a large enough PVP population to warrant any attention from the DCUO dev team.

It does not matter whether the decline in PVP was caused solely by decisions made by the dev team, or whether it was caused by the dev team following up on bad feedback from some pvpers.

The DCUO dev team cannot be expected to fix pvp if there aren't enough players doing PVP. They cannot allocate resources since they can't justify the decision from a business perspective.

Daybeak had layoffs recently, probably due in part to a new investor (Nantworks invests in Daybreak Game Company, creates new joint publishing division) in new LA Times-owner Dr. Patrick Soon-Shiong. Its almost de rigueur that when there is a big new investment in a company, or a company takeover, or in this case, a new joint development and publishing venture, people get laid off to cut costs, save $, and increase efficiency.

The DCUO dev team will continue to focus entirely on PvE, as that is their bread and butter, and allows them to earn a living, or else, they would need to polish up their resumes to look for a new job.

Its all about $ in gaming now, with loot boxes and microtransactions.

So, if Pvp is going to get some attention, the first and only thing to focus on is getting the Pvp population numbers up, and then maybe, we can talk about some key fixes for Pvp. Because, without enough pvpers, there isn't enough $, which means the devs are hamstrung and cannot do anything even if they acknowledge the sad state of PVP.

But its sort of a Catch-22 that the Pvp population will not go up if there aren't key fixes deployed for Pvp.

The only way I can see that can increase pvper numbers is to wipe the whole slate clean and trigger a hard reset to some default stage:
- Remove all restrictions for Legend characters. That means all Legend characters can be bought by anyone (subscriber, premium, free-to-play).
- Remove all restrictions for Pvp Arena gear. That means all Pvp gear can be bought by anyone (subscriber, premium, free-to-play).
- Treat Pvp Arena the same as seasonal events. Thats means everyone is at the same gear level. No more Pvp CR 101 having a huge advantage against another with no pvp gear or only Pvp CR 97 gear.
- All stats are set the same when people queue into pvp matches, regardless of Pvp CR gear level or skill point numbers.
- Thus Pvp gear is changed so people get feats only.
- Throw in a very random chance to get stabilizer fragments or stabilizers.

The hard reset is simple enough, without the need for much testing.

With this hard reset, the onus of Pvp fixing shifts from the dev team to the players. If players of all access levels (subscriber, premium, free-to-play) don't start queuing for Pvp more often, then it signals to the dev team that the current DCUO population does not support Pvp.

If the pvp population numbers go up, then some Pvp discussion is warranted and some fixes for pvp can be justified.

Without the numbers, there isn't the chance for more $, which means no chance for Pvp.

And no one in the current DCUO dev team knows what DCUO pvp was like before, what it can be or what it should be.

So its better to wipe the whole slate clean.

Its kinda like the revamp, which kinda wiped the whole slate clean for Pve.

Sup OP. Welcome to the forums but yeah, you're kinda late to the party. Loup is 25% right. Pvpers been trying to get pvp clean out since the time it was popular and we somehow still ended up in this state. The devs simply aren't interested and since the game put itself in a position where it has to make money or bye bye. Don't expect change period.

Welcome to the party, but you are years late playa.

I just think talking about DCUO Pvp history and what fixes should be applied is useless, unless pvp population goes up, and it can't go up without hotfixes ie Catch-22.

Whats the 75% wrong portion?

Really the point of this was to put forth a plan for correcting PvP if it ever becomes a considerable fix for the devs again. Somehow.

I'm aware that the PvP population is low, but the fact that the devs changes led them to that point should be considered. It seems they don't have a responsibility to fix things in the game anymore that doesn't involve making money. Not only in this kind of thinking never going to get anywhere to fixing the issues of the game, but it's also self-harming and seems counter-intuitive.

How are the devs ever going to raise the PvP population if PvP is as broken as it is. Offering free things? Why would PvPers come back for free things in a system that's still not fun anymore? This also seems like it would be bad idea in the long run because the devs would also need a way to make money from the increased PvP population in the future. That would mean they would have to take away the hard resets as you described them, and make things premium and membership exclusive only.

I just have doubts that people will return to the game and stay for free things once they see that it's still the same old system as before. I understand the plan you're putting forth though, but to me it still seems like the same idea of a bigger plan, which would be bringing back the attention to PvP. If the devs put out a big enough statement that they'll start to focus on PvP, and make things free temporarily it has the biggest chance of returning a PvP population as well as a better system. With more potential revenue as well from the potential members.

I agree to most of the points mentioned especially about the come back of counter immunity and separating pve and pvp mechanics however skillpoints should not be excluded from arena, we have legends pvp mode were skillpoints are already excluded for this kind of pvp.

To be clear, a character with 450 sp should be superior to a new made character in arena pvp since alot of time, experience and sweat has been invested into ones character development however the players skill of countering should ultimately decide about a games outcome like it was in the past just that if no counterplay is involved sp should clearly matter.

I'd like this summed up in four short sentences please.

There have been tons of previous posts made by others, plans put forth "to make pvp great".

I already said all that is moot, because the "if" will not happen, when the devs decide that pvp can receive considerable fixes.

Its almost like a Catch-22.

If all we have is talk, nothing happens. Because we are not talking about a few fixes, but a considerable revamp-like Pvp patch.

Don't think that just because the Batman/Robin blockbreaker eventually got fixed after multiple multiple posts calling for dev action, that the same will happen here. It won't. The Batman/Robin blockbreaker fix was simple.

What people expect for pvp fixes is not.

Why? Just because someone started playing DCUO pvp earlier, they should be granted an skill point and gear advantage against pvp newbies?

That someone who pvped for 4 years is of a higher status than someone who pvped for 1 year?

I can say this for the top top 1% of pvpers, in any game. They don't need any advantage. In their mind, they would smack all challengers so hard the challengers would slink away in tears.

"Time, experience, sweat"? So then, all players who earned their spurs in the old format, where you only got marks when you won, and got zilch when you lost, are of superior stock, higher nobility to all the other pvpers who played in the new format?

So someone who pumped larger amounts of $ into DCUO to get all those skill points in time capsules to get to said 400+ SP is suddenly superior to someone with 200+ SP?

All this talk about player skill is just white noise. Because right now, if its just talk, we will be talking until the cows come home, until the sun rises from the west, and still nothing significant will be done for Pvp.

Because arena pvp is about our in game characters which we developed over many years up to 7 years... all that should be worth nothing in pvp arena ? why ? if u want a equal pvp playing field u play legends where u can pick exactly the same character, powers are not equal no matter how u want to look at them anyway.

I understand that PvP fixes would only be a consideration once PvP activity is more apparent, but I can't understand how it would be that difficult to figure out what immediate changes should be considered.

We don't necessarily need a new PvP community to decide how to go about making fixes. Just looking at what prevamp had would be a good starting point, as it was a point where PvP was distinguishably better received than what came after, which is stats revamp. In fact this game has had years of work on PvP it would be disappointing to hear that the devs can't figure out where to start with so many reference points.

DCUO pvp fixing is justifiable, because it has been neglected for so long.

Just not justifiable from a $ perspective. Ok, you don't want it to be all about making profit, that if no profit can be made, then it will be ignored.

But if just covering costs is the goal, attempting to fix DCUO Pvp can't even do that, not at this moment anyway.

You sound almost naive. Of course its about making $. We are in the era of microtransactions. We are in the era of gambling in games with loot boxes.

Are you a multi-millionaire or billionaire and plan to start a new gaming studio or buy one or invest in one, and do things the right way? Fun fact, a billionaire just invested in Daybreak.

I never said its hard. I said its moot.

It would be a complete waste of time to do so since the DCUO dev team either can't or won't fix Pvp.

As for the devs, no, from DCUO pvp history, other than having the RPS system to start out, which was great, everything else after (starting from Home Turf) has not been. Were you there when Home Turf first came out and all the Home Turf goodies were in Pvp? An extreme lag-fest, and players depending on trinket pets and what not.... an unmitigated disaster. And lets not talk about AMs when they were in Pvp. Or near 1-shots from Smokebomb or Flip Slash.

Only one dev or two cared about Pvp enough to properly fix it eg Combat responsiveness in Game Update 47. But lack of manpower dedicated to pvp meant DCUO Pvp went into the doldrums again soon enough.

Keep all the Pvp fix proposals in the bag and only bring them out when DCUO Pvp is open for fixing. Otherwise, you just risk wasting good ideas amid all the noise of the other pvp fix proposals from all the other players.

I am making a simple point that something has to change for DCUO Pvp here and now, not talking about pvp fixes and building castles in the sky.


Yes, my proposal can be considered radical, and maybe risky, but its a start. You can disagree with the points, but no one can argue against just wiping the slate clean and starting from afresh, just like Stats Revamp.

Because trying to do patch a few holes here and there is not going to cut it.

Clearly, we have extremely divergent views. So don't bother replying to me here and I won't have to be forced to reply to you either. If you still want a discussion, we can take it to PMs to avoid thread derailment.

If you want pvp seniority to be worth something, you can have:
- more skill points earned only in pvp, which help in pve.
- exclusive pvp cosmetic styles, account-bound, non-tradeable, style unlockable. The styles having aesthetic equaling those placed in Time Capsules.
- exclusive pvp commemorative items/styles eg for those who earned their 250 Pvp match wins for the feats instead of the 50 win feats now, for those who earned their pvp marks under the old system where winning got you marks and losing got you zilch.

I will leave out proposals for DCUO pvp to make $, when DCUO pvp gets fixed.

I just don't get that you want pvp seniority to confer some kind of special advantage in pvp arenas... you need that?

So, yes, wipe the SP and gear gap. But the power gap remains. I never asked for all powers to be equal. And powers are not and will never be equal. They just shift from one point to another. So you still have that gap that you so clearly want.

Lets look at MOBA games. There is never balance there either. Developers always try to balance things after gamers reveal the imbalance in tournaments. Gamers will always be able to figure out the next best thing and push it to the max, and then, another patch, another balancing exercise. And developers have to balance things. Otherwise, the pvp matches become a bore to watch and audience appeal can be impacted.

But yet, even in these other games, sometimes a character or two is left purposely unbalanced, for the purposes of milking $, selling exclusive skins/styles for such characters.

DCUO spent all the time on the Stats Revamp and you still have unbalanced weapons. So why you expect that there will be some kind of acceptable balance when and if DCUO pvp is fixed, is beyond me.

And no, Legends is not equal or balanced either. If you played for 7 years and don't know that, that's not good.

Clearly, we have extremely divergent views. So don't bother replying to me here and I won't have to be forced to reply to you either. If you still want a discussion, we can take it to PMs to avoid thread derailment.

I stopped reading at big damage & immunities. And,.......I've been here since 2011 and started on the PVP server.


Not only is that a no but a HECK NO on all of it. All you are wanting is to bring back AM's in PVP and immunities. They were both a joke and the reason why PVP went to heck in a handbasket. The revamp made PVP better than it was by a long shot.

We sure can agree to disagree when it comes to SP in arena pvp, we have legends pvp were they dont matter if u want them to not matter go play that pvp game mode with equal zero sp and same powers, no need to get rid of them in arena aswell, i am not a fan of clamped content... i develop my character to have good base stats, do i need them to win in pvp ? hell no, but do i want my invested time into my characters development to matter in pvp ? hell yes!

AMs in pvp were bad. Fact.

Counter immunity in Pvp is subjective. You are clearly against it.

But that is neither here nor there. Arguments for what can and should work in Pvp have been thrown about ad nauseum, and DCUO Pvp is still in its current state.

For the points in orange:
- For any one who did not read Mepps' post in August, read post 21 from the I just want simple answer from anybody from Daybreak Game Company thread, stating Daybreak's current stance on DCUO pvp.
- As for expecting the devs to set Pvp standards, read post 92 from the same thread, highlighting changes made by the devs which impacted Pvp adversely, and were not asked for by pvpers.

In short, any further discussion only serves to reinforce Mepps' previous post. The potential goals you stated do not in any way, address any of the hurdles Mepps mentioned. Lets not forget, that thread was eventually closed.

Hence, my point again on why all this pvp potential fix talk is moot.

And hence, my proposal on a hard reset for DCUO pvp.

There is no point on further discussion if it is just a rehashing of the same few arguments, only in different wordings, which is what this thread is doing.

Those potential goals, you do know they have already been discussed before in some form or another.
If you want to move things along, That1DarkKnight, you are going to have to make a proposal, with very specific points and reasoning, that attempts to address the very hurdles mentioned by Mepps.

I never said I wanted AMs back, all I mentioned was the part about damage. Have we had AM for the longest of times in this game? Yes, but I didn't specifically mention AM for the very reason that it was awful for the game. Also you claim that immunities were bad for the game like many other people have had in the past, but you could at least do the simple thing of explaining specifically why it's bad for PvP.

Clearly I'm a proponent of Counter-immunity so the fact that they weakened the punishment-reward system in revamp would of course make me dislike revamp. However, that's not the only reason revamp has ruined PvP, particularly arena PvP. We now have ways to achieve invulnerability and limitless power spamming in order to deal out damage or support. This particularly harms the way people have engaged in group PvP for a long time, but also it's even worse for 1v1 situations than what we had before. What we had before was being able to deal out more damage when needed, but instead it wasn't limitless as it is now. It meant you had more opportunity to choose when you really wanted your powers to take a bite out of your opponent, but you couldn't abusively just rely on primarily your powers unless you were in a group setting (with a few exceptions being HL and a few other powers). Even when you were in group PvP, if you play things badly you could run out of power at some point and face the consequences, whereas now you can spec into full Might and Power and expect to never run out of the latter.

Lmao

The Am era of pvp and this era of pvp are basically identical since both promote spam parties during matches. However, even as a nuisance, the AM span of pvp was still better than it's present counterpart, back then, you at least had the ability to block certain combos, and lunge certain attacks, now, you don't have that same luxury, so players just spam their tray with no consequences. Furthermore, even when you do counter it's barely beneficial because the immunity dosent last as long as it used to. In conclusion, if you didn't like counters it's simply because you weren't good at them.