What’s up with low CR players in high cr content?

Oh for sure, I've lived by 3 attempts and I'm out simply because I'm premium and I'm not asking for colas from anyone lol

Yea, I was just speaking to you more generally rather than the specific post, it was just the one I clicked reply on

I think generally what's urgently needed is proper in game tutorials.

I sometimes think about that and I get that it's sounds outstanding on paper.

But the title should say alot about what would happen even if they did.

People would get kicked a whole lot more and maybe get a tell to go run the tutorial...

Leagues will send new members to tutorial to check on their skills, for a short period, others a bit longer and then wouldn't step foot in there again...

Still will have terrible players, you have been around long enough without a tutorial, that would be enough for anyone to just want to forgo a tutorial and follow your example, nobody that would benefit most from the tutorial will run it first without trying to group up with a seasoned vet or group or you wouldn't even have a thread like this anyway.

There is already ways and content to work on one skills, yet only in content that by all accounts are overlooked and underplayed, in an effort to soar with eagles when they first need to learn to fly.

But that leaves out the fact that even knowing what your doing doesn't mean you will complete content, still have to learn how to work with other players and all the differences we have.

Yeah you could be right, I wonder if perhaps a degree of passive stuff when leveling to 30 wouldn't better, you can switch to your support role but the game does absolutely nothing to really explain what they are, probably right there is where you'd want a tutorial, rather than an instance.

Wait... PvP gear is still a thing?!

I'm almost thinking it should be close to the mentor mission or right after.

I mean a newer player to MMOs, probably wouldn't have a clue to common terms like healer or tank.

I know when I first started playing the game, I was clueless to how any of the roles played, but I was not shy to voice myself and I can truly say it was brutal back then as it is today for a newbie.

And we had GMs back then active in the game, wasn't no 5 min hold to kick people, if you didn't look the part, you can easily get a loading screen before bosses or have more experienced players voice themselves to have you removed.

I mean it depends really how it is created, if its anything like the brainiac ship 'tutorial' then I 100% as that is straight trash for a tutorial.

But if people like obsidian chill helped with how each tutorial should be handled and work for each role and the devs actually listen and took the feedback and used it, I would imagine the tutorials would be worth something.

Maybe the tutorial could only be run once per skill, being made more difficult than just a 'walkthrough', like you'd have to put out so much power, or having to throw certain Debuffs if troll, certain amount healing or shield moves if Healer, controlling the adds or throwing your immunity move if Tank, with a title added assuming you passed so you could avoid the 'Go run the tutorial...' scenario if questioned. Title would NOT be unlockable on your alts. But nothing too tedious as the Artifacts run....Never sure why we needed that much of a mission to 'learn' about artifacts, when you don't really learn anything about them (leveling) till you get out of the mission and back to JC at the watchtower.

I've always been of the opinion that a terminal stop during the HQ tour might be a good way to go. Stop at the terminal, get a heads-up about the second role opening up for your character and maybe have it direct the player to check power descriptions for second role characteristics or direct them to ask other heroes/villains for any other questions or suggestions. It would give direction to the player but still put the choice of playing that second role in their hands.

There's just enough difference between the powers in a given class (Tank/Controller/Healer) that I just don't think there's a way to make an effective one-size-fits-all tutorial, plus playing both roles isn't mandated by the game itself. It's certainly helpful for the player in getting into content and offers something else to do besides damage, but you can go through the game as damage-only if you so desire and never touch the second role.

I've said this in other forums too... the CR skip is a double-edged sword.

What it's good for: when an already-experienced player wants to create a new character and run it in the current level content. This player would have a character he or she has already built up, learned mechanics, done feats, earned a lot of stuff over many hours of doing it right and wrong. These people can buy feats over to the new character (and maybe buy a few back to their main if they haven't finished some of the ultra-long grindy stuff like "Gather 20,000 R&D nodes"). These folks are probably testing out a new power set, a new role, etc. They might make a couple of mistakes getting used to the power set, but beyond that they have a good idea of what they are doing.

What it's OK for: a player who has been playing a lot of other MMO games and got dragged into this one by friends who currently play or are just curious about the game and want to see what it's like. Yes, these people will make more mistakes than the average seasoned player mainly because they haven't seen the exact fights... but they are familiar with what to do in these situations and just have to turn what they need to do into muscle memory.

What it's bad for: new players who have never played an MMO before and are working on their first character. These people unfortunately have no clue of what to do, what it means to be a controller, healer, tank, or DPS. They aren't passing through the early leveling stages and learning what to do, how to work their characters, etc. They show up in a high level instance and walk into a fight doing nothing but tapping triangle while in healer role... or they queued in by selecting both roles that it permitted for their power set and then screw over the group when they don't have the equipment/setup and the system tagged them as that role. After they get a full view of a loading screen (because they were the only person in the group who had a power set that could perform that role) they start thinking how everyone in this game is mean. When they show up as a tank and you say, "Pull the adds!" they have no clue because they're using the wrong powers. They barely have enough skill points to do anything but they're going to try to power a raid team?

Unfortunately to go along with the "bad" side is the simple fact that the end game community expects you to know what you're doing and can get very toxic with people who are brand new to the game or are inexperienced in general. They will let their frustrations get the better of them because you didn't live up to their standards. They also don't want to accept the blame for what happens when they blind queue into an instance. It's a simple fact that if you blind queue, you get what you get. Don't like it? Leave. Nobody says you have to say a word (though a, "Sorry, gotta go," might help... nobody says you have to state the actual reason why)... and nobody is forcing you to stay.

The thing with that is who actually uses those tips they give anyway?

Sure there are some who would check it out, but generally most would bypass reading or paying attention to tells, like the red letters or skulls in a fight.

The tutorial is helpful after you get a feel on what to look for, it would be the same problem with roles.

Besides, if it is going to only be played 1 way for all roles, it can save space on the server to eliminate all the different powers and abilities and only have 4 powers and 6 abilities, the rest would be useless due to the meta.

I'd prefer each of us find what works for ourselves and stop trying to shoehorn everyone else to be the same, but maybe it's wishful thinking

To set it up like that would be massive, each set of powers do something different than the other, yet they generally achieve the se results.

I typically look at it like this...

DPS in content burns add quickly till NPC health reached zero, for survival they try that as fast as possible.

For tanks, they have very high endurance and can take a beating, damage is lower than a DPS but it is compensated with high endurance giving tanks the ability to survive longer till NPC health reached zero.

In both examples, I am only speaking of 1 on 1 confrontations, it will be very difficult to have a tutorial on what to do.

What may help maybe is a simple tutorial on the tabs in the inventory screen, but I don't know if that would help either.

In either case most of the powers used for roles do tell you what they are there for and for which specific role, but only open-minded people who are interested in becoming better for themselves will actually test each power to see what works for them.

It's not like we can't setup a sparring bot or go to one in the war room or league hall.

It is much easier to blame the lack of skill on the lack of a tutorial despite the fact that the game has never had one and people do fine without it.

You mean like in the open world bounties when it says, "Avoid Kalibak's attack," or "Block or avoid Validus' attack"? The flowers of death that suddenly bloom after that are so pretty...

It's not wishful thinking... at least not to me. The devs went to "stats matter" (GU73) to get rid of Advanced Mechanics because under AM if you didn't do the exact loadout as a DPS a wet matchbook and wet firewood would burn better than you... so they wanted to create more variety of play. Except that it didn't because yet again there were only one or two loadouts that really worked.

Enter the artifacts. The first ones basically helped your stats but ended up providing a (non-stacking) buff for the group. The artifacts then started showing up even more... and they gave us a second slot... and eventually a third. First artifacts only went to level 100... then they went to 160 (they might have had one update in between where it only went to 120)... and now to 200. The artifacts became a band-aid to fix things that were wrong with certain powers... except that all they really did was magnify the differences and then further push us back to the "one true loadout" path while giving us a second option... that of a weapon mastery (precision) loadout (and for a while prec was king, but now they seem to have a bit more of a balance). The artifacts also never seem to be fully vetted as to what they can and cannot do, so for a while we end up having some major issues... overburn (heat vision with solar amplifier at 200, venom wrist dispenser buff), kill range of group heal (page of destiny and celestial), supercharge top-offs out of combat (when EOG first dropped it would do the green circles any time you popped a SC as a tank or healer)...

So now if you want to enter end game content and you don't have your artifacts to at least 160 and aren't using the "right" artifacts, you find yourself unable to do it... thus bringing us back to the "one true build" to go along with the "one true loadout" of the AM days. To get true variety of play all of the stuff we have needs to be balanced against everything else... or removed, if it can't be. This is not a small task and would take a long time to finish... maybe to the point of losing a DLC cycle if they really started doing deep dives and such, so I'm not going to hold my breath over this.

Exactly!!!

I wasn't really talking about a per powerset tutorial. More of a per role. Not sure 4 specific missions would be massive. The user would be instructed to look at their powers and see which do a certain activity...cast shields, throw debuff, heal, power regen...whatever. Not like 'cast engulf to pull these npcs' for a Fire tank tutorial. Might actually give them a thought of looking at the powers vs just putting whatever in that fell in place as they leveled.

If there were going to be that level of tutorial, I'd actually find it better that DC or DBG would freelance some of our many content creators to create some videos on youtube, which could be listed under a DCUO channel the game could reference. It would cost next to nothing (having your video chosen would be reward enough), and could be updated as things changed.

Even four would be challenging, though. While you have similar abilities the mechanics of each power set are different enough that I'm not sure you could make one mission to cover Earth, Ice, Fire, Atomic and Rage tanking well.

And that's really only the tip of the iceberg. Weapon choice will have an effect on how someone decides to play a non-damage role, and the number of available Artifacts out there now adds even more variables to the equation. Mod choice or even what sort of consumables a player might want to use further muddies the waters.

And with all due respect to the content creators and all their efforts in making videos and exploring loadouts, I think they should be left out of the process should a tutorial be made. What works for them isn't always going to work for everyone, and getting folks to set aside their personal preferences for/biases against elements of the game may be easier said than done. Ideally a tutorial should give a player a push to explore what they CAN do, and it's very easy to imagine player-made tutorials turning into meta-reinforcing "you MUST do things this way" affairs.

Hence why I said it could input from ppl like chill to make a actually useful tutorial based on how powers are played and used at end game, at the highest level of play.

The middle part doesnt always line up with dcuo though as from what I hear dcuo is original when it comes to having the troll role and its combat system. So just because you have 50 years of MMO experience doesnt mean your going to be worth a dqmn in dcuo because of how it operates these days.

I personally like the idea of a skip so you don't have to worry about being a specific cr to enjoy the content, on the otherhand I think once players understand the fundamentals of pve like Skull means danger etc. I think pugs can be better, but there needs to be a tutorial explaining that, but then again there is also youtube that can help with tutorals which I use to understand new content myself. I personally don't like games to hold my hand but if it's needed, it's needed.

for the past decade this is the only game i play. before this I always had a game console in one form or another dating back to pong and breakout. I've played tons of console and computer games and rpgs. For as far back as I can remember any game I started playing was always preceded with a little bit of research.

while some kind of in game tutorial would be nice its basic knowledge you can find information on every single video game ever created online. if i were going to start out on a new game, especially one where I know I'm gong to invest a a lot of my free time you can bet i would try to find out as much information about it as i can. its out there.

I can be extremely patient with people. the things that would cause me to run from an instance (outside of offensive cmments/behavior) revolves around people refusing to work as a team and thats something you cant pick up from a tutorial.