Weapon Mastery: Rise of the CC controllers. (Thank Devs 2 THUMBS UP!)

You're not showing any compassion or understanding for the other side. You want tanks to be relegated to holding agro and taking hits. That's as boring as spamming defib. Nexus was not fun to me when tanking it back when it was hard, it was turtling and hitting a power every couple seconds. Paradox was great, but that was because it was the best designed raid ever in the game, unless we see another one that actually stresses a tank to that point (which actually was too much at times lol) then there's no fun in just keeping ourselves up, it's easy, and boring.

"destroy the role" and "take away half of the role" is not really any different. I think TrueOlympus knows where i'm coming from and I think he exaggerated slightly, but it'd be putting tanks into a similar position to old trolls. Where what you brought to a group is just dull, boring, and easy. We'd still be needed on raids, but we'd be much less fun to play. Sound familiar?

And yes I focus on WM because that took away controllers primary job, regardless of what you consider your primary job the last 3 years has defined a controller's primary job as the power healer.

As far as your arguments to support your idea, I really don't care, I agree, but if it were to happen it should have happened 3 years ago. And sorry if I am getting a little frustrated when I'm being accused of Bias from a guy who's trying to remove half of a role.

Fine i give up. there is no reasoning with you. I'll just start making threads about how all non-tank roles should be nerfed in defense/toughness/whatever so us tanks can be utilized in content again. DPS, Trolls, and Healers were never meant to survive a punch from one of Satyrs Trio anyhow. Obviously. Time to get tanks back in the business of tanking.

/sarcasm

serious about being done with convo tho. Cheers

To add, the way I've always seen tank role is this:

A mediocre tank, one who holds agro and doesn't splat easily knowing how to use his CC and blocks to avoid damage.

A decent tank, one who positions correctly, this includes the use of pulls, a decent tank will get the mobs where it's best for them to be for quick kills, this is in addition to positioning themselves in the right spot to minimize splash dmage on the group.

A good tank, one who does all that but also has an above average grasp of the counter system and can use that to make content that uses it quite trivial (looking at you AnB).

A great tank, one who does all that, but also realizes he's beefier than he needs to be and starts to pump up his damage as much as he can while covering everything and making people scratch their heads wondering what this guy is doing that no other tanks do.

That's always been my thought on it. /shrug.

damn it. i haven't graduated to great tank yet. Im still stuck at good

I want tanks to taunt? You mean I want them to do what they're intended to do?
So we forgot that tanks actually do more than taunt and take hits now? They don't utilize combat counters? The way they also absorb damage isn't "fun" enough by cycling powers?

You didn't like turtling? That is part of tanking. That, among what I mentioned, is how you stay alive. If you don't like it why are you tanking? Because you want to control? It shouldn't be your job. That is suppose to be 1 of the core jobs of controllers.

You just want to do everything right? Tanks don't want to share ANYTHING. Even though Controlling is capable to 2 roles and superior for disabling for one.

Paradox was th best raid designed? That is subjective. You're looking at it from a tanks perspective only. Perhaps for tanks but not for controllers. What did controllers actually need to control in there again?

I edited my comment. Explain how it will destroy the roles abilty to taunt. The same way some controllers actually find blue bar healing fun applies to players who find the new limited tank fun. I find strict blue bar is not challenging. I like it. But others love it and find it fun. Same will happen with tanks. If you don't like it do as you said and switch to controller. If there is no role someone finds interesting, the. This isnt the game for you.

If this first suggestion is viewed by you tanks sonegatively, and you're unwilling to be reasonable to give up some control effects, why aren't y'all putting more focus and attention on supporting the idea of make up and type of NPCs in raids? Why isn't that emphasized all over the forums to get something down now? Or is that off the table too? Put attention into something because all you all are doing is say no no no to everything. if another 6months goes by with nothing done then i guess the tanks not CCing idea is just going to have to be revived.

I see a great tank being overpowered and godly. Which is why 2 other roles are less engaged.

I am sorry tanks losing the CC ability will be devastating to this game. If any thing controllers should lose the CC ability (nothing is more aggravating then the tank doing a pull and the mob has immunity) and their job of debuffing should become significant.

A good troll in Para was handling boss mechanics with tags and pickups and standing in the back and generally being that utility slot guy making everyone's life easier by being awesome. That's in addition to keeping power flowing and bosses debuffed. And as far as CC, the trollers I played with were awesome, grabbing adds while tanking bosses that could make you go splat was not easy, so a good troller tagging the adds with CC to buy me some time was quite wonderful.

As far as survival on tank goes, even with counters and cycling defensive stuff, no, it's really not all that entertaining. Why? same reason a lot of stuff isn't, the content doesn't really require much effort be put into that area. There was a reason I and the tanks in my league were slowly slipping more DPS gear into our setups. Post WoTL survival took little to no effort. And wasn't really fun. Tanks need more than just easy survival.

And please, ask Greenman how much I've tried to contribute to raid design and what not that would help promote controllers controlling. I've said as much as I can on that subject.

Now you're talking to yourself.

Which I did. Holographic Decoy (stuns temp and taunts) in the middle of the adds when they spawn during EO feat. Tanks then physically pulls/taunts them. Why didnt I use another controllable power? Because they breakout in 2 to 3 seconds.

My debuffs were always up. I always had a heal debuff up and defense even if I was PoT controllers. I also knew what to debuff and didn't waste a heal debuff on a boss who didn't heal significantly or throw it on a energy orb during a pillar phase because it doesn't reduce heals out. I also didnt waste power to debuff no lousy pillar because that's just silly.

Revives? I'm terrific at those.

Power? I'm a master of the double tick.

That raid needed great controllers. But it did not need them to control a majority of the time. Compared to other controlling objectives and unique NPcs to control in this game, that is not the best raid for controllers if they need to control.

Perhaps make NPCs hit way harder. Keep tanks on their toes by cycling powers to live and counter combat. sounds like your intended second job? Slipping on DPS gear? You mean do DPS through powers and consume the most power in the group kind of tank? At the end of the day, your job is to taunt.

Do more Jeebie jebus. Do more.

Oh look. A tank just stated he wants controllers to lose cc above. And he thinks not being able to control will devastate the tanks main job of taunting.

It's only been one alert. Maybe the raids from here on out will actually require you to CC while the tank is occupied with something else. Is it really asking too much for you guys to wait and see?

You gotta be ready to overlook some hyperbole if you want to have conversations on the forums. They happen everyone uses them, if I wanted to nit pick I bet I could look through the last couple pages and find you doing it as well. But that's just getting off topic and not really understanding the points being made. Tanks losing CC would be a huge hit to the tank play style, calling it devestating might be exaggerating but it's not so far off when you consider that half of the tanks abilities would be getting nerfed.

You repeating that a tanks job is to taunt is no different than me stating that a controllers job is to give me power. It's overlooking a whole bunch of what the roles offer. It's oversimplifying them into what their main job is in a raid. And honestly those jobs just aren't that entertaining.

And the only time I was ever a power hungry tank was back at the end of t4 where I would run tank in nearly full dps (just enough dom to control things) and just tear up GoT and beat most DPS on damage while tanking. Otherwise, no, it's all about the weapon combos and prec, powers = defense when needed.

And yeah, I want to do more, always do more, always look for something else I can add to the group, whatever I can. Heck I played the CC role as a DPS in early nexus. When I realized Quantum (main powerset at that time) could CC the bots with warped reality I made it a point to be the best I could at helping them lock those down if we activated them on accident. I also did my best to pick people up, I prided myslf on that, I had tunneling, so I was going to make use of it. Of course that lead to oen of our trollers getting the nickname "bounty" as he was the quicker picker upper, i couldn't beat him even with tunneling and he was gadget. As a healer I perfected my battle healing because i wanted to add a ton of damage and get the healing done. I never want just one job, screw that, I want to be better than that, always better, always more, always.

"Tagging" the bosses in paradox is exploiting an error in the AI, not being a good troller. I agree with the rest of your post though.

I don't really disagree.

I'll just restate something. Removing a tank's ability to control will not destroy it's intended and most important responsibility. Which is to get the NPC(s) attention. It is to taunt.

Most NPCs move towards their target whether they are "aggro'd"or taunted aggressively. A Tank who cannot physically control NPCs will move towards him/her anyway. NPCs that attack at range still focus on the tank when they are taunted (which controllers can push/pull closer to the tank).

That said. Your role is not "devastated" or "destroyed." You still are able to get the enemies attention.

From Tunso (SOE Developer):
"The reason Dominance is useful for tanks is because enemies who are knocked down, stunned or being juggled can't attack back. Tanks with high enough Dominance can take a lot less damage versus weaker "trash" (non-boss) type enemies by keeping them on their backs or otherwise helpless."

While controlling is meant for you to prevent NPCs from beating down on you, certain game updates have been uploaded into the game since the DCUO's launch. Updates that favor control effects for Controllers and serve to keep NPCs disabled longer (disabling is their 2nd primary duty) so that you don't have to control to prevent damage.

Game Update 17:
o Control effects applied while in the Controller role no longer have a chance to break early due to damage.

Game Update 31:
"Dominance now increases the maximum possible duration of stuns, roots, levitations and encasements deployed from super powers at a rate of +1 second for every 500 Dominance (2 milliseconds per 1 point of Dominance)."

These changes, without a doubt, favor controller control effects. Tanks do not stun, root, levitate and encase. Except for Ice's roots and encasements.

The developers have expressed their view on the Controller role. Including Sptyle. If you're going to SOE live, ask them face to face. They will tell you the reason they "named Controllers 'Controllers' is because they were meant to control things. If they were meant to solely give out power they would have been named Batteries."

There is no question about it. Tanks snatched that job. Further failure from the Developers to created engaging corridor and boss battles in T4 to T5 (except a&b last boss) encouraged this along with the player bases twisted mentality of what roles are "supposed to do." All while ignoring the natural results of an ability or weapon combo used by a controller.

This is what I based my decision on when I suggested idea 1 (remove all control effects) and idea 2 (remove physical pulls or knockdown/juggle/knockbacks). The need to control for a tank to taunt is not needed and it outdated. it conflicts with the developers intended design on the controller role. If making a change like this will revive that intended design then they should do it despite it being 3 years into the game. WM didn't seem to bother them. Doing this will also have a tank rely more on a controller and healer to keep them alive. It may encourage traditional sets up in raids.

Suggestions one and 2 is a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. Either controllers aren't needed at all, or tank's lose 1 ability out of their list of things to do. Given that Controllers are actually designed to control, and that changes have occurred to favor them, tank's losing 1 ability or half of their control abilities must go.

If you're just making a decision because of how you feel about the situation and not because of everything I wrote down makes sense then you're just as biased as you claim me to be. If you love the controlling. Be a controller and allow them to change this. As cold as it sounds. It is the logical choice.

If you hate these 2 suggestions, then either back up my 3rd suggestion of improving NPC types and set ups in these herds in corridors or suggest something that is realistic and works. Even though this one will still have tanks attempting to take over controlling (as they try with A&B). Enough with the negativity and PoV just based on feelings or incorrect info.

I've done both, suggested alternatives, and supported more dynamic content. So yes I'll continue to oppose your 2 suggestions that would hurt the tank role.

That's also meant for everyone else who decides to jump in here and blast some ridiculous details.

I know you oppose them and that's fine and all. But I rather everyone come into this thread and suggest something positive now. It's just nothing but apokoliptic rants from both sides including myself. Once I get home I'll just prioritize that my comment to that odyssey guy. maybe that'll revive some positive chat in here.

This statement is supposition, plain and simple. Unless you were sitting around the table when the devs were discussing their reason for this update, you are just guessing. Surprise, surprise, you assume it favors your flawed position and provides part of the basis for your "argument." I'm glad you finally spelled out some of these "facts" for us so we can see just how flawed your reasoning actually is.

As an aside, I find it very telling just how fast you turned on JEEBIE once he criticized your ideas.

Carry on. Your special brand of narcissism always provides amusement.

Seriously?

"Game Update 31:
"Dominance now increases the maximum possible duration of stuns, roots, levitations and encasements deployed from super powers at a rate of +1 second for every 500 Dominance (2 milliseconds per 1 point of Dominance)."

These changes, without a doubt, favor controller control effects. Tanks do not stun, root, levitate and encase. Except for Ice's roots and encasements."

How do they favor tanks?

I turned on Jeebie? Disagreeing and talking to him assertively is "turning'? Wow.

So you want the mechanic intended for tanks 3 years ago to go away because the game has progressed, but you are falling back on the discussion point that controllers are called controllers because they are meant to control things. If I am not mistaken controllers were named controllers 3 years ago as well. If anything you have failed to progress as the controller role has progressed.

I agree there should be a bigger role for controllers but taking away a mechanic from another class is not the way to do it so I suggest you work on ideas that do not affect other classes within the game. If you want to control things maybe you should become a tank.