Weapon Mastery: Rise of the CC controllers. (Thank Devs 2 THUMBS UP!)

I didn't fail to progress because I recognized 2 game updates that affected controller control effects. I even described them in full detail in controller threads since they've been live and how best to use them. You are talking to a controller who could solo control fos1 2nd boss, the crystal bridge part in fos2, and solo a&B manhunters. Only one that can be tricky is fos2 bridge part.

None of that does anything to solidify your argument. Not a bit.

I am not doubting your ability but the game has progressed from controllers controlling things as they have never needed to control anything. FoS 1 should have had 1 tank CC the big adds and the second tank should have been controlling the crabs. The bridge 1 tank one left side and 1 tank on right side pulling the adds. A&B 1 tank CC the front manhunter and 1 tank CC the back manhunters. Let me guess you already have killed off one of you tanks in tier 2 content and you probably killed off one of your healers in tier 5 content. So I am not sure why it is such a surprise that tier 6 will kill off the second controller. That is not your fault that is direction the development team went. Your suggestion of removing the control mechanic from the tank is where the problem lies.

I know you are adamant about your stance here but lets spin this the other way. Tanks lose the ability to CC. They only can grab aggro but now controller can CC non stop. Well guess what the tank role become very situational for all end game content. I would guess you would have groups of 5-2-1 dps-troll-heal and one of the DPS could go tank for boss fights if needed. It would just feed into DPSUO mentality. Your suggestion to save the second controller will just eliminate the tank role.

I'm sure in this thread you are talking to Tanks who could, and can, solo Tank FoS 1 2nd Boss, the Crystal Bridge part in FoS 2, and solo the A&B Manhunters.

y not have NPC's that can't be killed by DPS. Kind of like the manhunter concept. Forces another CC role to pull them away so that tank handle the first main objective while trolls keep those type of NPC's at bay.

Its not at all, but I still think it warrants an actual discussion rather then everyone jumping down our throats completely dismissing it because of whats in front of us right now.

We've been waiting for 2 years for actual content that requires CC and all we've gotten in that time is half a room in 1 raid where we have just 2 adds that our are responsibility (the tank takes the other 2.)

Waiting is all we've done here, thats why so many threads on the subject pop up and why I and others jump on the subject when we get the chance

Tanks still have more value to a group, if they were to lose the ability to CC, then a controller does in that situation

Tanks still have the best survivability of anybody, can taunt and effectively position any group of adds where they choose/confine them to a set area, making them easier to burn and keeping lower health players from dying

Again, I want to reiterate here that I personally dont want to completely remove Tank CC only limit it, but Tanks still have much more value to a group then a controller does with or without CC particularly now that power isnt flowing through the group at an incredible rate anymore

Like I said in another post, I wouldn't mind if they redistributed the various tasks and gave you guys primary the CC job. But they have to give us back something substantial in return. Just taking it away from us because you guys are bored is a no-go.

Trolls been complaining about being batteries for ever.... Yet have no problem trying around and trying to turn tanks into Sponges.

What sort of thing would you want in return?

The tank role is far more in depth then the control role has ever been

Tanks are primary CCers, pop breakouts and cleanses, position and pull adds/bosses all while having to manage their own shields/health buffs with several powers

Controllers at their peak were responsible for giving out power, picking people up and defense debuffs (nobody uses healing or defense)

Tanking is far more fun and in depth then Controlling is, particularly now that power isnt an issue

you have nothing to offer therefore we aren't interested. Instead of taking our abilities they could look at giving you better debuffs or buffs and let them stack. but there's no reason to break what isn't broken.

I'm The Dark. I have something to say about everything.

I'm sure anyone overgeared can do all those right now.

But a long time ago, most of us weren't. I had a tank alt and I ran Fos1 & Fos2. For Fos 1 I could fly with my tank. So when the 2nd boss fight began I taunted & physically pulled those 3 NPCs that spawn at the beginning. I would fly up in the air and block cycle my tank shields. Just before the crabs jumped out I placed myself towards the side where the wall is near the first boss and I pulled those 2 crabs off. Then I flew over to either one of the other sections (depends on which one the group wanted to handle) and I pulled the crabs from there off. Those usually got close to those things that turn them into the bigger NPCs but I always pulled them in time. All this while keeping the 3 NPCs from the beginning with me in the air.

Not really difficult to be honest. The group physical pull is super easy mode. As a controller I equip joker jet pack and I do just about the same thing. Except the crabs got even closer because I'm using my Grapple Line pull from Acro tree. But I still pulled them all and left 2 for the group to kill. I would of used Taser but between the time each PoT ticks and the immediate time I needed to pull those crabs so short, Grapple Line was the smarter choice. Sometimes the crabs would jump back up from the spots I pulled them so I pull them back.

Fos2 bridge? Depends on the group too. Some I pulled the NPCs, as a tank, all off the bridge so the crystal guy can run them up or the crystal guy went through the bottom and came up where the 2 spawn under that cavern. I told the group to focus fire the brown NPC that wasn't under the cavern to kill him. I pulled the 2 under the cavern to get them stuck. There is a cliff designed right behind them for a reason. then I make my way over to the over one and pull him. If they killed it I pull the one that spawns on the side I was at. Or I could just pull them all into that hole next to the crystal and stay there since they can escape from there.

I did this all as a controller too but I needed to move fast and pull ASAP. Most of the time the hole was the best option.

More Controllers have more difficulty these days with A&B then some of us realize. It's super easy as a controller. 2 Mines by the door. One by the window. if you are taking out the tubes. if not just 2 by the door. manhunters pop up, I pull them both and jump so my pull takes one over my head. same with the other.

A tank handling the manhunters I just find silly to be honest. Even if the fight is literally like 30 seconds. The tank spams juggles and power. Which is power and has damage split from the DPS powers and weapon combos with everything bunched up there. To me, taking the extra targets out of the way and stunning them for 16 to 18+ seconds (depends on dom) is just a smarter choice. But either way it's handled isn't difficult. It's either spam power and be reckless and cast one or 2 powers and leave them alone for 15+ seconds.

Didn't expect this answer huh?

You said

You're saying I'm guessing what the intentions were when they made these changes. I took the changes for what they are and suggested ideas on how to take advantage of them. I also realized how they made the intention of one roles ability to control out dated and just not needed.

I posted the update notes.
"Game Update 31:
"Dominance now increases the maximum possible duration of stuns, roots, levitations and encasements deployed from super powers at a rate of +1 second for every 500 Dominance (2 milliseconds per 1 point of Dominance)."


Then I said how it affects tanks by describing how it doesn't.

"Tanks do not stun, root, levitate and encase. Except for Ice's roots and encasements."

I went on and said these were updates that favor control effects for Controllers and serve to keep NPCs disabled longer. Which is a controller's 2nd primary job. These kinds of control effects and NPCs that are programmed to be vulnerable to them make it so a Controller applying the effects to them do make it so a tank doesn't need to control.

That is what these changes are meant to do. The only problem is the make up of 15+second controllable NPC's in the raids (except for batcaves). They are already in the t6 which is huge plus but unfortunately everyone ignores them by skipping all the NPCs.

Controllers should get more buffs that make the other players stats increase. Similar to Hive Mind is to Nature. This way if Tanks CC then Trolls buff and de-buff while keeping the power up. IMO

Your first part only convinces me of why I want the removal of CC from them even more. But I don't want to go into that. It'll be a whole new and loooong convo.

I have thought about what would happen to a tank if they can't control. IF all CC was removed this is how I see it. A group would start the instance and, if the content isn't the "normal" difficulty the devs said they would make which is just them saying easy mode but actual difficult difficulty, then it would be much more important to let the tank go first. Having the NPC's in corridors deal high damage requires that the tank taunts to get their attention quickly. The NPC's would then move towards the tank.

The controllers would push/pull the NPCs closer to the tank and continue to control them under the current set up of immunity in 2 to 4 seconds for NPCs (The make up of NPCs here makes it so they can continue their current make up of NPCs.) so tank take slightly less damage. most of the damage they mitigate should come from their powers that keep them alive.

While the controllers are doing this, the tank is blocking, block breaking, interrupting, cycling powers to stay alive, and continues to taunt. *oops I forgot to say pop breakouts for the team**Which is what they were intended to do from the beginning. Sounds boring. Probably is, but there are players who seem to love/like that.

A Tank is still very much needed to get NPC attention and absorb high damage. In short, be the groups sponge. But healers and Controllers have to put more work into helping to keep the tank alive rather than just sit back and spam one or 2 powers. Maybe a group needs another healer? maybe another Controller? Maybe even another Tank to absorb some damage? But I definitely don't see Damage player stacking especially if the raid is difficult with high health NPCs, high damage, interesting and unique battle mechanics from NPCs in hallways. Only if they are overgeared.

This is me talking about what would happen with idea 1.

I always thought thats how powers like Menace/Intimidation/Warped Reality should have worked

Don't worry I consider this a pleasant conversation , I'm a controller who gave up on it for the same reasons you were frustrated for it for the last year. Though I did like it in t2/t3/earlyt4 I felt we had content that benefited from our CC. I felt the power battery role was important but far from the only reason to be there. it wasn't until Got became a mindless walk through (it was always easyish but it was a bit before you were PUGing and everyone just destroyed it) and really HoF increased vit to the point that you only needed one. Which lead to them overcompensating in t5 making the power battery role stressful. Add to that the JC rotations that demanded 3 trollers, it just was IMO a bit of a mindless job instead of the fun job where I actually COULD support a tank with CC and where I could save a healer, and those things were worth using over power out so people played more efficiently.

I did enjoy trolling back then, I loved it. But from late BFE on it just went downhill towards defib spam, and then WM made that useless and here we are now.

I just wish we could get back to that era instead of making a major revamp to an entire role.

More supposition. More guesses. More twisting of the assumed reasoning behind a simple stat function change (that doesn't single out trolls, btw. Dom functions the same for every character in the game, regardless of role or whether they have abilities that take advantage of it or not, in reference to that change) to fit your twisted vision of what the roles are supposed to do and how they are supposed to do it.

The facts are simple. Tanks have been given pulls, juggles, knockbacks, roots and encasements to use to gather up mobs and for damage mitigation and a pile of Dominance to make sure they work. Fact. Controllers have an assortment of abilities that levitate, stun, root, encase, daze, terrify, and/or otherwise perform crowd control functions and access to a pile of Dominance to make sure they work. Fact. Dominance was changed to extend the duration of these effects. This happens regardless of role and IS NOT a troll-specific enhancement. Fact. Anything else said about these 3 things is pure conjecture. Period.

The only thing you have posted that has anything at all to do with trolls is the patch note regarding CC breaking on damage. I will concede that was probably given to the troll role specifically so their CC is more useful in a moshpit of mobs being obliterated by DPS but that is a supposition on my part. Trolls can CC mobs that are being damaged for a longer duration. Fact.

The problem lies in that, when presented with these simple facts, you are trying to read the minds of the devs and their intentions as to what each role's role actually is supposed to be instead of looking at them as they are. You are seeing motive where there is none and making wild assumptions based on nothing more than your own wants and desires. You will never concede that, though. Your ego precludes you ever accepting that you might just be wrong about something. That's a shame.

Instead of getting stuck in your endless loop of narcissistic self-aggrandizing posturing and prognostication, how about you step away from these ideas you've put forth and try to come up with something else, something new that makes Controllers an indispensable part of the Group Engine, as Tunso put it. Anhur got the ball rolling and there have been other voices in here that have offered alternatives that make trolls necessary, too.

BA Baracus had a thought about trolls throwing out player buffs in addition to debuffing enemies. That is a great idea. Imagine if the troll could throw out a +50% damage buff to the group in addition to debuffing the mobs' defense in TD. People hate how long that alert takes and that would go a long way towards shortening it up immensely while adhering to the 1-1-1-1 group composition. I'd dare say it would make trolls the most sought after role for most content if their buffs/debuffs actually made a measurable difference and resulted in a faster burn and less damage to the group.

What can you come up with that has no effect on any other role, either their abilities or how they currently function in the Group Engine, but would add value, depth and variety to the Controller role? Consider it an exercise in creativity, if you're up to the challenge.

Instead of permanently removing cc abilities like TheDark is suggesting, here are a few ideas to give controllers a reason to cc. Lets start with having a raid that temporarily removes the tanks cc abilities . My suggestion goes like this, in the first boss fight of my ideal raid everything will be playing as normal until the boss hits an enrage timer 30 seconds into battle. When this enrage timer is activated the tank must lead the boss to a certain area of the room to deactivate the enrage mode and keep the boss from one shotting the entire group. In the meantime, sub bosses will spawn while the enrage timer is activated that will use a power similar to hl's fan that blows the main boss away from the area where the tank is supposed to bring him. There will be two side bosses, neither can be juggled, both can be pulled, but only one can be stunned. So while the tank is leading the main boss to the target area, the trolls are constantly pulling and stunning the side bosses. The tank must have the main boss in the target area and the two side bosses have to be killed in order to remove the enrage timer.

In the second boss fight, the boss will be on an electrified platform that constantly deals heavy damage making it only possible for the tank to be on the platform with him. The boss fight takes place in a narrow corridor so if the tank tries to range tank instead of getting on the platform, the boss will use heavy aoe attacks centered on the tank causing the group to wipe. Seems like a basic tank and spank fight until heavy hitting adds spawn behind the rest of the teams. 4 adds will be spawned, two can only be stunned and the other two can only be pulled.

Here is the catch, when the adds spawn, the electrified platform gets turned up a level dealing extremely heavy damage to the tank. One of the adds that can only be pulled has to be pulled to a certain area in front of the platform while the other two adds that can only be stunned are killed by the group. Meanwhile, the other add that can only be pulled is constantly trying to make his way to a switch that turns the electrified platform to a level that tank cannot possibly survive. In order for the platform to be turned down, one of the pull adds has to be in the target area while the two stunned adds are killed all while trying to keep the other pull add from reaching the switch that will most definitely kill the tank.

So far the raid has mostly benefited the trolls abilities to cc but not the tanks. The last boss fight will require the absolute best cc the trolls and tank have to offer in order to beat. The last boss will be standing amongst a group of 5 adds when the battle begins. 2 of those adds will empower the boss to unimaginable strength when standing close to him. The other 3 will immediately go for the other group members besides the tank and deal damage up to 3K per hit. So the tank must keep these adds close to him while the trolls keep the other 2 adds away from the boss. Sound easy? Well this is only the first group of adds.

So after the adds are dead and the group has fought the boss all by himself for a while, the second group of adds will spawn. They spawn behind the group and immediately make their way towards the boss. These adds hit extremely hard and can demolish the tank in seconds. These adds are vulnerable to all cc effects but here's the catch. When a cc power is used, the adds will be immune to any cc effects by that player for a certain amount of time (say 10-20 seconds). This will require the tank and the other two trolls to alternate cc abilities to keep the adds from killing the tank. Timing of cc powers will be the key to defeating this group of adds. (Not sure if a mechanic like this is even possible but this is my make-believe raid so that's what the rules are lol)

So now the second group of adds have been dealt with and the battle becomes simple until the third group of adds spawn. This will consist of a group of ten adds. None of these adds can be cc'ed except one. They spawn close to the tank and he draws aggro immediately. The catch is tricky but here goes. The one add that can be controlled must be burned to half health then this will allow a second add to be controlled. If the add(s) that can be controlled are near the boss when they have more than half of their health, they will empower the boss to unimaginable strength while they are near him. Here's the tricky part, once the controlled add hits half health, he will allow another add to be cc'ed (as stated before), he will no longer empower the boss, and he will enrage. When he enrages, he will need to be pulled back in by the tank to prevent heavy damage to the team.

This will be an ongoing tug-of-war between the tank and the trolls pulling the correct add to the correct location to prevent buffs to the boss and prevent heavy damage to the group from enraged adds. All the while, dps's will have to slit damage between the add the troll has and the enraged adds that are pounding the tank. The enraged adds will still be vulnerable to all cc effects so the trolls will have to jump in to help the tank(s) once enough adds are enraged. Once this group of adds are dead, it is just a tank and spank until the boss is dead. You can now wipe the sweat from your forehead and pat yourself on the back because you just completed the most cc-required raid this game has ever seen.

So there you go TheDark. If a raid like this was implemented would you be happy with cc effects of both the trolls and the tanks. You asked for other ideas to make trolls useful so I threw out a raid idea. Would you enjoy my raid?