The Community's Attitude towards Support Roles

With the last few DLCs, the alerts tend to run best with 2 DPS, 1 Healer, 1 Tank (preferred) or Troll. Why? Very simply, the devs cranked up the urge for everything to attack the healer. A tank can prevent much of this, plus it can create a nice, neat package of stuff for the DPSes to burn. If you don't have a tank, having a troll can help with stuns (adds), and debuffs which make it easier to kill the boss (or even the turrets in the current one) as well as cut its damage, thus reducing the stress on the healers as well as providing a group shield.

I do the Earth Battle Tank thing, and on a random queue-in the chance of my being top DPS is reasonably high, especially against the average person queuing in (no, I'm not going to beat some of these "professional" DPSes, and that's expected). Occasionally I will do the Battle Troll thing as well, especially if I find the healer struggling a bit because I can put group shields into my loadout. As to my healer, well, if you're in a run with me stay reasonably close because I will give you plenty of supercharge back... and yes, I will move around a bit to hopefully optimally place the circle to minimize moving for everyone... and hopefully Lex won't fill it with that whirlpool of death.

For some players it’s not a matter of “Not knowing how to play their respective Support Roles” in so much that with all of these “Buffs” codes into the game the mindset now is not to care about building a Support Role. Another factor is the need to maximize your Artifacts and Augments for the Support Role to gain the benefits needed for you to be successful in the Support Role. That takes tremendous grinding or money spent on the Marketplace, which many won’t do for a Support Role not used as often as their DPS Role.

Can it be viewed as lazy, sure.... but when the game developers are making the need for a Support Role less needed... why would anyone work as hard to build a Support Role after working hard to get your DPS Role to the highest CR, Augments at 23/267, and Artifacts at 160 to 200? If the developers make it so the need for Support Roles is a must (as was the case before Revamp) and do so more often than not perhaps on Alerts and Raids if not Solo or Duos, maybe the Support Role requirement will make the need to build a Support Role a must vs. optional. This is why so many prefer to do League Runs over random runs because most leagues have all the roles needed to run content appropriately.

Brit gives you the perfect example of a lot of players attitudes these days. Please do not ask me to remember the date all this started but at a certain point some one came up with this "brilliant" idea that things could go much faster on a raid with 7 DPS and 1 healer. "We will just blast our way through everything .. who needs a tank or troll?' That eventually led to exactly what he describes.. Heaven forbid you showed up on a duo in a Tank or Troll role.. the other player would turn and walk out. The attitude was "Why should I carry this guy? He can't do as much damage as I can?'

It got to the point where you'd see messages on LFG where a 7-1-0-0 raid would run into a problem trying to finish because OMG this Boss is tough we needs us a tank.. And after kicking some one off the team (note that meant that some one that had been on team through out and helped get to that last boss was now gone before the final rewards were handed out), they were on the LFG begging for a tank. I totally ignored these requests.. Because that team had battled, beaten and gotten rewards for at least 2 sub bosses I would not .. So I was supposed to join their team and help them out and then if I wanted those extra rewards I was supposed to spent 87 replays and then TRY to find a team that would let me join a full raid? NO THANKS

This eventually lad to it being hard to even find support roles .. because after being turned down again and again and again,... many players, myself included, simply stopped logging on as one and just played DPS.

How about the opposite side of that argument... that people will select both boxes, despite not having the gear or even the set-up (read: an armory) for the role. I don't know how many times I've queued into something where a person selected both roles "because it makes the queue move faster for me." Then when you tell them, "Hey you're the tank/troll/healer!" they respond with, "I don't have the gear." EXCUSE ME? You KNOWINGLY selected a role you are incapable of playing just to move YOUR queue faster? You just screwed over 3 (alert) or 7 (raid) other players. Unfortunately with the way the code is written it's unlikely a proper safeguard against this can be put in because it's simply looking at the power set and saying, "You are eligible to play this role." What could also help is to invert the list of roles for selection (put Damage at the top), or at a minimum start with the selection cursor on Damage.

I take your point about the roleless buffs, but they only apply to alerts.

I accept there is some work involved in grinding to level augments and artifacts, but I think working up enough XP is set at a realistic level. The grinding required to finish all the feats in a DLC is already baked into the game. We are constantly earning gear to salvage and nth metal anyway. If people aren’t willing to even try a support role with all this provided, the only remaining excuse is the lack of a second armoury.

I've generally found that things go much more smoothly with a variety of roles, regardless of time. I'd rather a smooth operation than running around in DPS mode like a blue-arsed fly picking people up and fighting with cool-downs just to get it out of the way quicker.

I R TANK.

The Nth metal grind to get multiple artifacts to 160 was bad enough... getting them to 200? New ones will come out before you finish others unless you buy some stuff (metal and detectors) and take advantage of those rare double artifact XP weekends. That said, most artifacts do rather well at 160 so getting them to 200 is a bonus.

I would say it's not just the lack of a second armory but also a lack of learning about the role... having an understanding of what that role's job is. "Damage" and "Healer" are rather obvious... they're your infantry and field medics. But a "Tank"? Yeah, it's mildly obvious that they're built to withstand damage based on the name, but how many times do you come across a newer player who doesn't understand that the tank needs to have some kind of multi-pull or single taunt (depending on the situation) or that the tank can provide the group with an immunity to control effects? How about a "Controller"? Derived from "Crowd Control"... again, newer players don't seem to get that this job is all about stuns, debuffs, and power return... stun the adds, debuff the bosses, and provide power to the healer(s) and tank(s) through power dumps and the group shield.

For those who started early in the game's life (or have played other MMOs), this is easy and they know what's up... but for someone who's never played an MMO before and has no clue... the gravity of moving towards the highest CR possible without learning the roles along the way is VERY strong.

I think the reason there is more 3 DPS 1 healer - is due to the DPS' not willing to block, or shield, or use cola or supply drop or 'meat' shield(henchmen). - yep they are trying to outdo each other....

This really shows up when you 4 man DPS an alert - at one time - there was a fair amount of knowledgeable DPS' - they had a survive build - now there's a few - more show up at the beginning of a DLC, but they often go away after the 1st week.
So often with a 4 man dps pug, they(dps) just drop out or refuse to move - because they aren't strong enough or think the group isn't strong/smart enough to get through alerts as 4 dps'. There's also the 'chicken' aspect - who will change to their role first?
you would think the lowest dps - but often - it's the higher CR/damage player who built another armory because the other dps' are alts.

with 4 man dps - I do expect someone to die along the way - especially if you play mini-tank - defense is just not high enough to survive at times or the lag, might throw you off of your rotation (I have one) and it's tough to recover.

as for myself, if I had to choose a role - I prefer a really good troll - I prefer the debuffs over everything else.
I can hold block and mini-tank for a bit, use a shield, cola, supply drop, buddy w/shield or you might want to try a boo...

I have several alts that I run just a support role - and often you'll have players drop out at the beginning... so I'll wait...

so some are very understanding - others not so much - they are so into their own thing....

Without a tank in the current alert VMF, the boss will do one of two things: attack the healer or the top DPS. If the players are CR300+ it can be dealt with but not always ideal. I think Controller stuns and debuffs would be helpful in the alert but it's doable without.

But people have never been one to work smarter, not harder. No one can be bothered to do the first boss consoles anymore, which means you have both robots spawn. (Kudos to Dev team for rewarding people with feats for doing mechanics, not avoiding them) Same for the hallway spiders. I thought it was about getting it over with as quickly as possible. But I digress.

Alerts like Dark Reign, Batcave Breach and Damage Control do go better with a tank, heal and two DPS. It's much more efficient in BB if I pull all the lanterns behind the door on Oa and have DPS burn them while they are closer together.

I'm one of those who will leave a PUG if there is no healer. I'm more than willing to tank, but for the above reason, I know there's like an 80% chance the DPS' won't survive without a heal, and thus it will be a big waste of my time.

Something to keep in mind is that engaging in non-damage roles isn't mandatory. It's an option for players to explore if they wish, but it isn't required.

Speaking personally, I've got about a dozen characters that cover all three non-damage roles. Some of them are set up to run both roles, others aren't. I made the choice to run my Light and Rage characters as damage-only because I already have Gadgets, Munitions, Quantum, Ice and Earth characters more or less set up to run both ways (I say "more or less" because I really should take a look at their loadouts, it's been a while LOL).

Learning both roles is certainly encouraged and helpful for getting into content runs, I won't argue that at all. But it's not something that HAS to be done.

Agreed. I came at this from the angle of ‘why are there so few non-damage roles in alerts’, and have been exploring that.

OMG yes.. I have lost track of the number of times that happened. And I'll guess you have has this as well. After a while when a ton of players that used to just play support switched to DPS it got to a point where finding a team as a DPS got longer.. So players that had never even tried the role before ran out and at least bought some of the right gear. Then joined your team as your troll or tank or healer BUT they had no clue how to play the role and were still doing the same things they did as a DPS.

I had one guy that was "supposedly" our troll but for some reason we all kept running low on power. Some one asked him about his load out and when a particular attack that gave POT (this was before that was switched and they all started doing it) his reply was he didn't use that … " Doesn't do enough damage" After a while it was real obvious some people should NEVER even try support roles. LOL

Let me see I had so called Tanks that were always behind the entire group and IF they managed to grab aggro all those attacks the mobs were firing at him had to get through the rest of us first. I can still remember the one healer that was apparently a score board chaser when playing DPS... He kept rushing ahead of the group to be first in the room . and then moaning because he kept dying,. Finally some one said "Hey Dumb A ___ ___ you have on armor that offers the least amount of defense on the team. Try staying with the group" And of course.. he didn't listen and was dead more than alive before the team leader just had enough and started the kick vote that got him off the team.

But I have seen what you said plenty as well. I can still recall being the healer on a number of those 7-1 raids when it became obvious we needed a tank. We ha d at least 2 or 3 on the team using power sets that had a TANK support role. But when the question was asked of course not a single one had any tank armor … some had more than one armory so they could switch costumes and/or use different powers in the DPS role.. but no tank gear or a tank build at all. then Again if they were as bad as some that TRIED it latyer.. probably just as well they didn't LOL

Personal opinion? People aren't working on being both. They are accumulating just dps stuff and artifacts. I have troll and dps gear. 2 armories have troll load outs and artifacts in them. Now is my troll armory as powerful as my dps armory? No, I mean it's 6 artifacts I have to work on and my purple gear from missions is going to dps armories first. However, the point is I'm able to do both. I feel like more people need to work on being able to do both.
Never healed or trolled or tanked? Well google your power and the role and see if any good results appear on what loadouts and traits to choose. That way if need be you can do either one. You could dps during the mission, then switch to controller or tank or healer for the boss fight, then go back to dps if you like.

A lot of good points were made in this thread already. The prevalence of DPS roles is due to a few factors: Most new players are young and/or inexperienced, and as a result are quite self-centered and not used to teamwork. They can be taught, but they haven't been yet. They solo a lot, which DPS is good for, and end up building glass cannon DPS chars to chase the scoreboard, because they don't know any better.

They don't bother with a survival build because "someone else should pick me up". But then they don't bother picking up anyone else.
They don't block/use shields because they think it will take away from their damage output. Then they don't put out any damage because they are busy dirt-napping.
They don't bother with the cogs/mechanics in the game. In Spring Seasonal, for example, they all just wail on Swamp Thing, never mind that he is immune until you activate the mechanic.

I want this game to be around for a long time, and that can only happen if players continue to play. To that end, we need to be patient but stern with the less experienced players. Try a friendly recommendation about what they should do differently. Explain that it will make them better. Outperform them to show them you know what you are saying. If they ignore it or give attitude, remove them from the instance. Getting kicked a few times after being told nicely to stop getting all "Leroy Jenkins" will eventually encourage them to change their behavior without quitting the game. If you can't kick them, then you leave. The important thing is for them to see that there is no reward for bad behavior.

This is a good point, as well as others here.

I try to remember that MANY of the players here nowadays are probably young kids at home while shuttering due to Covid-19. That's why I go ahead and Dps in the duos and alerts unless they ask me to switch.

If we struggle, though - I then offer to switch to Troll so they can see what debuffs and group shields give the group.

And it's "LEEROY Jenkins", LOL.....my sons NEVER told me what this meant until I just googled it.

I'm not quite sure why these types of threads always seem to head down the track of self righteous back slapping of support players and I always play both by the way...

I think what needs to be remembered is that DPS is as much a role as Tank, Controller and healer, there's no "Us v.s. them"; that's just a ridiculous concept, we're all in the game together.

Small content is designed to be finished quickly and in a very flexible manner, the roleless buffs and the like are in place because people can and often do blind queue small content and often can and do, queue; as both roles even if they have zero intention of playing anything but DPS, it is simply the cold hard reality.

If you want to control group structure then you should be forming your own content in LFG, that is what it is there for, instead of moaning about the random results you get from random queuing, you have the tools to take matters in to your own hands, there's nothing wrong with the way the game is structured, it's simply a case of many of you not using the tools already provided to you to avoid an issue.

The whole point of doing DPS is to do as much damage as possible, that is the very nature of the role.

I say this with the utmost respect but there is not a single solo in this game where you require a "survival build" it's simply unnecessary when you have so many other means of defeating the boss and staying alive, any survival build you make simply compromises your damage output and makes the instance unnecessarily longer and thus, inefficient.

I would say the same thing about alerts as well, if you're having to resort to a "survival build" in an alert then with respect again, you're in a group with a garbage healer. You talk about trying to help players and educate them, which is true, but this knife cuts both ways and you aren't doing players any favors when you modify your own loadouts and builds to compensate for an inadequacy another player brings to the table and this is equally true of support players as well.

You shouldn't need to be modifying your survivability in small content at the cost of your damage it simply isn't necessary in any content this game delivers, in an elite raid or survival mode maybe, but in an alert, no and in saying that too elite raids often have burn checks, so even in those you can't be wasting your time trying to increase your survivability because the healer isn't up to the task.

First of all, cheers for the friendly and thoughtful dissent. Sounds like you may have more dependable players with you in groups than what I encounter.

I'm advocating for adaptability in a character depending on the group make up. Not saying survival>glass cannon (even tho it is )

And yes, DPS must do damage. That's their role. But time spent KO'd is time spent not dealing damage.

I agree that a survival build isn't necessary all the time, but it's handy. With 4 armories, it's not like it's my only build, but it's my favorite. I pug mostly and, as you pointed out, do see a lot of trash healers. If they aren't up for it while i'm max damage, that could be mission over. If I can bridge their deficiency and we complete it, that outcome is preferable to quitting. Being able to stay up and revive others can make the difference in completing or restarting a boss fight, too. 98% of the time I'm top damage and last to die, IDK, works for me.

Give me an alert with each role, with players that can play that role efficiently, any day over a scoreboard chaser run. Last boss in VMF for example, dps kill suits anywhere. Then proceed to dps on top of them. That arch lightning coming from the suits don't make you dps more or a dps will stand there and get beat on....roll away man, roll away! Or at least block! This drains a healers power bar, with no troller, and throws CDs off. Not all 3 dps groups are like this, just a lot of them. The real problem is the people who que for specific role alerts and then won'at perform that role. How do you think people learn to play a role?

I accept your point, yes, a dead DPS obviously does not DPS.

I agree an armory might be useful for those occasions where you might be PUGGING and the healer is incredibly bad and accept that reasoning.

The other thing of course we can encourage is people getting artifacts up, getting SP up, that sort of thing because that can ultimately also help survivability, you could also carry a PDF instead of a shield so you're not losing damage but still have that extra shield and block a bit more.

I agree.