So, I'd like to discuss this data...rationally, please

I didn't say you werent........i said our parses on the training dummies do not. Are you specifically dodging the question about what classifies as AM and WM dps on your chart? I didn't even ask you about power consumption yet you commented on that instead of my real question.

Sorry, didn't see the thread yet. My bad.

This and this "The data is sampled on T6 bosses, including Survival Mode" explains some of the disconnect.

I think that most Hard Light players, in end-game content (where Melee is not an option), feel that Hard Light currently does better on a single-target than it does on a group of enemies. (Bugged powers aside).

Which is why in the numerous Hard Light Feedback Threads, like "Request about Changes to Light" there have been many calls, requests, and admittedly outright demands for Snap Trap to become a Spherical-AOE around the target, and Fan to have it's ranges and number of enemies it's hitting looked at since Hard Light players feel that AOE (Ranged AOE-to-Ranged AOE combos) is one of many major stumbling blocks the powerset is suffering from.

(Along with Fully-Ranged Endless Construct Combos, Fan comboed back into Ram or Impact, needing a more robust Power Interaction "system" that uses Combo powers that apply and / or benefit from the PI, needing an Aggro Drop / Dump, etc.)

What this shows it that the ingame scorecard is skewed towards trash AoE scenarios (less significant for raid progression) and the internal analysis is rightfully based around balancing single target scenarios primarily (much more significant to raid progression ad PvP).

+1

As I understand it, it is DPS output.

This is an extremely important point here. Half of my rotation is WM => Snap Trap => Fan. Does the data say that I am using WM or AM? My AM numbers would be heavily skewed by WM and may even look AM look comparable to WM.

So far anyone that has tried to provide evidence that HL is a top contending power has done so by relying on WM to accomplish the majority of the damage. I am a decent HL player (still have room for improvement though) but I bet I can beat any dev only using H:'s WM mechanics. We can remove all trinkets and make sure that the stats are equal so it really would come down to whether the dev can do enough damage by just using HL's AM versus me using a typical HL load out utilizing WM.

The scorecard is misleading in so many ways regarding performance as an individual and as a member of a group. it is something we will be overhauling in the new UI...big time.

I'm so saving this quote in my sig

Considering that even when I utilize awesome mechanics as opposed to getting my WM crits 70-80% of my damage still comes from my raw WM combos.

Even though I am using weapon mastery and AM would this criteria still put me in the AM portion of this data?

Best. News. Ever!!!!!!!


Edit: Unless you say I get my Phoenix wings. That would be better news.

In order to quell many of the questions is there a way we could have a data site that we can see what you guys see? Basically just the raw numbers so any questions that people have they can find the answers themselves. Plus in much the same way that players have perfected the use of some powers and put the numbers behind it you can use the players to help with the balancing of the powers. The players have shown how creative they can be just look at the T6 marks thread, now put us to good use and let us see what you see.

There doesn't have to be a thread connected to it but it can be used as a reference for players and devs.

I can appreciate that, but it's also a more accurate representation of actual game-play.

I'd also like to reiterate what Tunso (and others?) said about the balancing process. The idea behind the AM is to balance it's damage potential with the might crit of WM, not WM as a whole. That's why I used the phrase "dry WM combos." By that I mean just using the precision combos without the might crit. All powersets can do this, regardless of whether they use their respective AMs or not. Of course, this makes the balancing inherently more difficult, particularly if players are using hybrid builds. As I mentioned, my current Celestial rotation only utilizes the dry WM combos and AoE combos from the AM, so technically speaking, I'm only using the AM. If I added in Smite to the tail end of my WM combos, I would then be using both WM and the AM. If I replaced that with RcW spam, I would be using the AM alone. And that's just Celestial. I'm sure similar issues arise with all the powersets.

Perhaps. I initially used it without specifically quoting anyone.

i cant wait to see what fire looks like in that graph. unless im doing something wrong, the AM is nowhere close to the wm builds

I assume he is going to ask Tunso or someone how they differentiate between AM and WM and what is considered anot AM rotation for HL and Celestial so I'll continue to wait patiently for that answer.

I just asked Tunso for clarification on that.

To contribute to the HL WM portion of this chart, you have to do a WM combo and not do any light combos at all - no AM.

To contribute to the HL AM portion of this chart, you have to do the AMs which trigger the Light PIs, otherwise it assumes you are not doing the AM. Use of WM leading into that is not excluded from the log. I am told it does not distinguish, at which point I asked if it could.

They will look into that, and we'll have to see what it looks like exclusively, but it gets very very complicated because at present it relies on Power Output to generate equivalent numbers. This number, if your assumptions are correct is a hybrid of the two - which does draw even. I take that as a positive for what it is though.

That's another point to consider. There are obviously varying ways to utilize the different AMs and WM combos. There also gear, modding, and SP differences. Also, as suggested by Spytle previously, the targets will affect the DPS of each. These factors likely vary the results considerably. Without knowing who these "Top DPS" are and how they are geared/modded, how they build/rotate, it's very hard to interpret why they are even putting out those kinds of numbers. It's also hard to compare them to what we see in game.

Hopefully he will just ask the person(s) with direct knowledge of exactly what is being recorded and how to join this discussion. Spytle is not 100% of what the numbers mean so it is much better to get the best person rather than give wrong information. Just to be clear, I completely understand why Spytle would not understand the numbers in the detail we want since 1 person can only know so much about something as complex as DCUO.

Listen, can you please ratchet down your confrontational tone? I came in here for a calm discussion at the behest of the OP and you are already getting kind of belligerent and putting motivations of dodging into my responses. I am simply gathering data. I had to ask, okay? I am trying to work around morning meetings and people's deliverables to get you the answers I can. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought you mentioned power consumption as an issue, so I answered that since I could.

Interested to know more about this. So, are you saying that these DPS numbers are adjusted by relative power in to create more of a DPS efficiency metric?