Open Letter to the Devs: Stats Revamp.

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by Lt Skymaster, Feb 1, 2017.

  1. Lt Skymaster Dedicated Player

    Hello, I as long time player and member, I would like to take a minute to appreciate your work towards making the game a better game. While we agree and disagree on a lot of subjects very often you do take your time to communicate and try to improve in things you can.

    With that said I would like to point a few things that have come across after reading the devs comments and player comments over the last few months.

    First and foremost I want to point out that I believe there has been misconceptions to what we as players wanted and what you developers though we wanted. There will always be people who will disagree on things for one side or for the other but here is what I would believe most people would agree.

    So breaking it down

    What we wanted:
    People wanted for Skill points and Skill to matter, not only power sets, having a high cr nature dps with 200 sp being outdpsed by a lower cr and less skill points Ice dps was just not right.

    They keyword that we were looking in damage potential was Balance, across all power sets.

    However besides that there would be other complaints about people not knowing how to use their AM and being bad at it. And on the other spectrum there was people saying AM 1 2 3 4 5 was too easy.
    People also wanted other ways to do damage, multiple ways for a powerset to be used and different powers to be used. Or create a viable dps load out with iconic powers.

    What happened then was that you ,the development team, are trying to solve everything at once with stats revamp:

    What we got:
    Skill points mattering because of the stats revamp with exponential curve and all.
    Efforts on balance to all powers at the same time while making it easier for people to do damage while also letting people do more complicated things

    Taking out completely damage bonuses of WM and AM
    Revamp of powers and increase of cool downs.
    Removing PI's left and right and change of the core mechanics of powers/ roles

    What's the Problem:
    I think most people would agree that removing the exaggerated bonuses of WM and AM wasn't bad.
    Nevertheless the idea that people with no intension of caring how to do rotations, and the intention of just hitting things mindlessly is closer to them in dps it's not something a lot of people like.

    Furthermore there is also problem that you're changing a lot of what people are already used to. And honestly if there is anyone to blame for people not knowing how to use AM's 1 2 3 4 5 is yourselves for not properly teaching people roles and how to use their powers and of course the player for not wanting to learn more.

    There will always be people that will play just to hit things without caring what's going on. And players who want to do best damage and best everything. But you can't solve everything at once.

    If people who also doesn't know how to play never fall into the bottom of the scorecard they will never learn either how to do things they will never ask themselves the question what i'm doing wrong.

    And as for what the players wanted I have never even read make the game easier for people to do damage. People really wanted just powersets balanced.
    Personally, if I can beat a top tier raid with a bunch of dps only using HB it would be the saddest day of my life.
    I rather quit that see that happening.

    Honestly removing PI's and Simplifying the game it's not only sad but disheartening as well.
    I remember the firsts days I started playing the game, I didn't know how to dps at all, but I did read the tool tips for each power and I remember using PI's was the first things that made sense, I mean it was the most basic dpsing of all, then I started understanding the damage modifiers, and I was fire back then using fire burst with the mod to have 20 seconds 60% damage modifier was a huge deal back then.

    With that said, I want to get a point to where one of the biggest mistakes you've done, without trying to offend anyone is letting people go from level 4 to CR 100, that way they don't get to experience a lot of the game and learn by themselves.

    In other things I wanted to say:

    Proof that you don't always get what players want is that you just recently passed from the 2x4 setting you always had planned, to going 5-1-1-1.
    And let me say that you guys as the developing team are failing in this. We shouldn't be choosing as players what to run raids with. For instance Throne of the death that has been one of the bests raids in design, you have multiple things that happen while you also force 2 tanks at the first boss ( Talking at level) If you design a raid for 3 tanks and you want it to be that way that should be fine, and if people try to 1 tank it that's also fine but they should get the consequences of it.

    To sum things up (TL;DR)
    - Whatever the case is I appreciate the job the devs are putting into this.
    - Players never asked to trivialise the game even further and to let people without knowledge have things easier.

    If they don't do bad they'll never progress in the game.

    - Players want BALANCE across powersets. Not changes in the core mechanics they've been using for a long time now. It's safe to say that all of the powers have had already their fair change of mechanics.

    - Be better at teaching the players their roles.

    That's it have a good night.
    • Like x 15
  2. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    I'm sorry but I find that a bit strange. People say AM's are unskilled and People say they want them to stay. AM's end of it's self is intitally rewarding people for not being skilled, And now people are against people just using Weapons.

    Like I've stated before We need more options, not less. Let me ask you this: If people enjoy spamming pistols and you don't let them be competitive with it, you're intitally saying"Hey you can't play like this, Stop using Pistols and play our way"

    That was the biggest issue of the WM/AM era, you had no choice on what rotations and other powers to use. Instead you played what they wanted you to play, and not what you wanted to play.

    I'm not saying that People should beat Raids by just using HB, but if People are already beating raids by just doing 1-2-3-4 as it is on live, What's the big problem? It's already unskilled as is.

    We need more choices, more diversity, not less.

    And that's what is going Haywire on test: Developers have made some choices that have upsetted players and kinda lowered the fluid gameplay. For Example: Shard of life got removed, Supercharges are now going back to 100%, and Cooldowns are really getting folks upset.

    Cooldowns are probably the worst part about this Revamp(outside of Balancing issues) Take Cyro-foam on test for Example, it's not fluid, it's clunky and it's a 3 second cooldown. They intitally gave it a Longer cooldown then Rage's Outrage on live, no Powerset should have a cooldown greater than or equal to 2.5 seconds. It's overkill and ruins the flow.

    I like Approach that the developers are doing and the innovation behind the idea of Stats-matters, but the execution is really what's gotten some players up in droves about it.

    But at the same time, they're making adjustments to improve user experience and that gives me hope for this update.

    Of course, Sheer Speculation has a lot to do with what's going on right now. A lot of other complaints simply seem to come from the Folks on Live who haven't tested this update, aren't willing to adapt outside of Advanced Mechanics, and are afraid that this update will be worse than Game Update 47.
    • Like x 6
  3. Lt Skymaster Dedicated Player


    I don't see a what point I said less options :p
    I do agree what you said at the last part though that i put on orange.
  4. Nucleus DC Well-Known Player

    I would still like to see how they made STATS actually matter. Everything that has been tested has contradicted that they do matter.
  5. Jacob Dragonhunter Steadfast Player

    That statement right there. While it's not directly stating that Weapons users shouldn't be able to beat raids by just using that play style, it certainly implies it.

    Ergo: That would take away options.
  6. ozzy1111 Dedicated Player

    you hit it on. but, as you said, the devs are trying to make the, everyone, skill, can still be about the same. and that, is a game killer!!!! there is little as in...stats matter in what there doing. they have said they gave op on the2x4. and went with the...were all equal now. all they seem to be doing is...getting as many people to play as they can. cr100 free. good for vets. bad for the game. noobs...sad as it is...I think the devs (DBG) knows just what there doing...and its not making the game better for us....its all a different (game plan)...
  7. light FX Steadfast Player

    I also think some of the initial changes and current ones with the stat revamp is there are many new devs and a lot of times the new people want to put their mark on the game. Undo some of the things the previous people did because they want to make their mark and do things better. But sometimes different=/=better.

    Now i could be wrong and the new team doesnt care about making their mark. But ya cant argue that that type of thing doesnt happen all over the world with many different companies. Imo there has always been some kind of disconnect between the players and the devs. That isnt a criticism of them. But i feel it does exist. Remember the comment that lpve runs can be done in 5-10 mins? Anyone who has blind queued for any lpve map except the trigons prison would not make that statement. And that is where i believe part of the disconnect is. Sometimes i feel the dev team views things one way but the players have a completely opposite view of things. When that happens i think the goal should be to find out why there seems to be such opposing views and then try to aim somewhere in the middle on the topic being discussed or the feature that is being changed.

    And why i feel there is a disconnect is because of some of the things u said in your OP. We as players wanted stats to determine our dmg out/in, power out, healing out. And somehow the devs took that as change how the roles function. I also do not believe the function of the roles needs to be changed for the stats to matter like some players have claimed. Before gu47 our stats determined those things i mentioned and roles functioned the same way they do on live right now. The last announcement with the latest build admitted they were aiming for 2-2-2-2 with every raid group. And that is not something all players wanted. Only a small vocal group of people on here wanted that. People wanted 2-2-2-2 to be viable but not required. Meaning variety and give us the choice if we desire. Also the info on what they are trying to accomplish should be stated right as testing begins. Not at the end when that goal is being changed. It makes it harder to test when u dont really understand what u are testing because u dont know what the goal of it is.

    Making 2-2-2-2 or 1 tank 2 trolls 2 heals 3 dps the normal raid setup is a simple fix. In my eyes a simple fix at least. The content itself needs to dictate that setup. Content where there is enough dmg so most people need 2 healers but some very skilled groups can do it with one. Same with tanks and trolls. Problem is majority of players cannot seem to handle even slight difficulty. Lastly i feel the game not teaching players anything at all about trolling, tanking, and healing is simply unacceptable. The game is plagued by players who have no idea what they are doing because of the lack of a proper tutorial.
    • Like x 6
  8. ozzy1111 Dedicated Player

    stop with the cooldowns. make it so we can use either...weapons...powers...or a combo of both. DO NOT tell us we MUST use (this) loadout. to make it work. stop with the mods in tc that we will NEED to make it work. just another money grab. this was a easy fix, from the fubar they did with all this crap in the first place. and all they are doing is messing it up even more...but, as I said...I think they know what there doing...just not what we wanted them to do...
    • Like x 3
  9. Wiccan026 Loyal Player

    I didn't actually quote the quote you quoted (lazy, sorry) but the quote you quoted was how it would be sad if folks could beat a raid just using handblasters.

    I personally think actually dividing the powers into a weapon only style play is silly and slightly unnecessary (I'm probably the minority, it doesn't bother me that they are doing it either... I just think we could have divided it into two options). When this game started, folks played with weapons and powers, as folks have continued to point out as of late, and granted it eventually went into clipping to give yourself the "edge" but your powers always came into play.

    When Weapon Mastery was added, sure things were more about the weapons.. but in order to do it "right" you still clipped your weapon mastery attack with a power to get boosted damage... so again you were still using powers and weapons. I will say at this point though because weapons (and than the weapon buffs went through the roof during the time of having an increase of 45%) alone could do decent damage but you could blow that out of the water with proper execution of weapon mastery.

    When AMs were created you ended up having both builds work at the same time, the hybrid role (which was the pet powers and the two dot powers) and than the rest were play from the trays. Thus allowing folks just to be one with their powers... which allowed more powers the "freedom" of not needing a weapon which before was only given to the combo powers. Granted this freedom, like all forms of freedom, came at a price... the lock of using specific powers in order to do AM damage.... which unless you did your research you wouldn't know about because the game doesn't truly teach anyone how to play... they've always relied on the player base for that.

    When stats matter happened and they went about describing it, I was convinced that they were just going to remove the AM bonuses and hopefully update the iconics so that you could actually use them without hinderng the group (which hopefully they still will do). I didn't expect an overall the way were getting and I don't like several of the changes but I'm still willing to exist in the "jury is still out" category... not by much.. but I'm willing to wait for now.
    • Like x 1
  10. WilderMidnight Devoted Player

    this is just like that episode of the guild when vork crashes in on floyd petrowski office and demands him to hear his list of thousands of unfixed game bugs and issues.

    while i think we as a community have some influence its minor. whats going to be done is already done. i'm just as unhappy and as nervous as the next guy. hope for the best, adapt or find another hobby.
  11. ozzy1111 Dedicated Player

    players cant seem to handle even slight difficulty...that because they made this game a DPS circle jerk game. now, we have so little skill. the game is a bore. and with this (update) they have said, they want it to be so everyone can run everything...equal...and that's not the right way to go. there will be even less skilled players. and the few vets that are still playing...and paying...will leave. there is no (stats will matter) in what there doing...all the time, and effort players put into this game over the years, is now a joke. new players come in. get most of what we had to grind for. no skill. the devs make it easy for them with boring feats, that take no skill to get. and they wonder why people are upset...???
    • Like x 2
  12. Derio 15000 Post Club

    AM ruined the game literally.

    One because they limited your playstyle dps wise tremendously.

    There is a 10X difference in damage from someone using AM and someone not using AM.

    AM were literally impossible to balance unless they were the same style of AM and even the same style were difficult to balance.

    AM were not friendly to new players and turned many new players away from the game.

    Devs neglected nature and electricity as an admittance that they did not know how to balance AMs.

    IMO the current stats revamp is far from perfect. But IMO it is much better than what post GU47 was.
    • Like x 5
  13. BumblingB 15000 Post Club

    What could not be balanced was types of damage because the content was lacking on the mechanics necessary to give variety.

    Burst damage is all you needed. For a very SHORT time, Nature and Electric were actually strong in T5/T6 because of the health of the bosses and with Lockdown complexity of the content. There were still the burn mentality that creates bland design, but it definitely was an example of what made it right.

    AMs were not the problem. The mentality the devs had where everything had to go UP and UP never to clip or bring down. That's what ruined the game and actually started in T5 before the words "advanced mechanics" (or "awesome mechanics") were coined.

    Also, I loved AMs for what they were. I didn't love the lazy design they had with a lot of them. Ice and Fire were muscled in, while Munitions is what they should have. Gadgets design, though not fully open, was really interesting, while mental and quantum were just really lazy copies of Gadgets. Pet classes were just very lazy design that made you feel useless. DoT classes just couldn't shine due to content, but they were unique, even from each other. (Though nature's was better with the refresh.) All in all, I don't care if they remove the AMs. I do care about them just pulling the rug from under us when it really feels like it wasn't necessary to later find out they did it to force 2x4 when all that was going to do was half the player's potential.
    • Like x 4
  14. Lt Skymaster Dedicated Player

    I think you just went searching too far for something that wasn't there, and I meant it just like Wiccan said.
    • Like x 1
  15. SuperNerdGeekOverkill Dedicated Player

    I haven't had a chance to test the revamp yet with all the recent ingame events keeping me busy.

    However, I am happy about:
    • CR differential soon being a thing of the past
    • being able to spec SP into whatever I want instead of being forced to spec into stuff I don't need
    • Finally having all power points available to me
    • AMs soon being a thing of the past and I soon being able to really "play my own way". AMs are just so limiting. Either use these specific 5-6 powers, or your damage will suck.
    What I read and am not happy about:
    • controller auto-pot. One of the worst ideas the devs have had in all these years.
  16. CountryBoyof74 Well-Known Player

    I love the game, But I paid for this title 30 times over................ Need something epic, And something epic for players who paid a lot from the Wallet/Purse
  17. light FX Steadfast Player

    If u are happy about all of that stuff then good for u :) For real. What i will say is with only 6 loadout slots and 2 being used for a SC and a SC builder and a 3rd being used for the wpn buff it means only 3 slots to choose. They can get rid of power points but until we have more then 6 slots it wont mean much. Plus with 3 play styles, wpns, powers, and hybrid, 1 will end up being optimal. They havent been able to balance just the powers in 6 years but will now balance 3 play styles that includes both wpns and powers? I dont see it happening. And i say that based off the past. Most players will go for the optimal dmg loadout rotation. Always have and always will.

    Plus the announcements for gu36 and 47 said pretty much the same thing about giving us more variety and choice. Lastly i agree on the SP thing. But it remains to be seen as far as play from the tray. If i have to dump a ton of sp into power to even play from the tray then that is me and a lot of other players speccing sp into stuff we dont want. Final build is a ways away. So many things could change. But what gets said on paper (forums) around here is not always what translates to the game. I hope they pull it off and im wrong. But because of past history the giving them the benefit of the doubt is gone for me. Because a lot of the same things being said now have been said in the past. Atm i see it as talk is cheap, actions matter ;) But i really hope it ends up going well. Cause for me this update is make or break and id rather stay playing dcuo instead of moving on.
    • Like x 1
  18. SuperNerdGeekOverkill Dedicated Player

    But at least those three will be absolutely free to choose. Or are there any reasons so far to choose specific 3? If not, that is by far more choice than any AM ever offered us (well, except rage Range AM, for which you only needed 1 power, but the dmg is bad anyway).

    However, loadouts could be really free if each singular power had varying numbers of power regen, SC build & dmg. That way a loadout without SC could be just as viable as a loadout with SC. But in general, I like the fact that they are trying to make SCs viable for DPS role. What I like about playing heal or troll is that the SCs are your "holy sh*t"-move. I want that for DPS too. Like when the heal and/or tank and/or troll are perma-down, and the boss has only dozens or hundreds of health left, I want a "holy sh*t"-move that will do a crap load of damage to finish them instead of wiping. Currently, the only SC of that kind is sorcery's grand summoning. Other than that, SCs suck for DPSes (ok, biggun doesn't exactly suck, but it's not the "holy sh*t"-move for bosses I'm talking about either).

    Of course. The goal is not to make them put out exactly the same numbers, but to get them to the same level (which includes a margin). So if one loadout does 500k-1mil more or less in an endgame raid than the other loadout, I'd say that's the same level. This is by far not the case as is. AM vs no AM loadout is not plus/minus x, but times x.
  19. BabyBoyzim Committed Player

    Worst thing about stats matter is the time capsule (of f'ng course) incorporation into all this with the mods. They need to change the moniker to 'cash matters.' Since that is all this team gives a crap about. I redownloaded eso and plan to give it another go due to the tremendous content they recently added along with the news about actual expansions. There is a company that takes players money and gives back in the form of content.
    • Like x 1
  20. Menelaos Dedicated Player

    This is what I'm talking about...there are a number of ppl who keep saying that what they have tested DOES show stats mattering and then there are posts like this.

    The constant contradictions are causing confusion.

    We won't really know until the change is made and we test it for ourselves I guess.