My thoughts on art swapping

How was it exaggerated? Proxy said you don't need to swap to finish E+...so I asked him to put the run together where no one will be swapping and beat E+. That's generally called 'put your money where your mouth is' and is a pretty common response when someone makes a statement like that. It's actually loaded in Proxy's favor as likely he's got enough high end players to get the job done without swapping. In a random group, swapping might be the difference between pass/fail if you were in the wilds of LFG building a group.

Heck, I didn't even specify WHICH E+....I'd guess there is a difference between ROEE+ and TSWE+....quite reasonable of me if I do say so.

It seems to me that your idea of the difference in the difficulty faced by a group swapping versus not swapping is a lot bigger than it actually would be. When you ask him to put a run together to "prove it," it sounds like you're suggesting that an elite plus capable group (when swapping) would suddenly experience some great struggle if they stopped swapping. That's why I find it exaggerated.

The only difference that not swapping will make is that it'll make the fights take a little bit longer. Unless we're talking about a damage check feat, that shouldn't have much impact on completion success. That's why it strikes me as odd to view Proxy's claim as some big claim.

If you disagree, I'd like to know what specific art swaps are being done in elite plus that significantly alter the difficulty.

Well besides the troll swapping Cog and tetra, or whatever the flavor of the month is for 'buff' trolls, I'd guess most people would swap in DKS and Pstone, as well as EOG. Tank maybe swapping in LPW or Clarion for critical parts...not sure as I don't do the swapping thing. Do they alter the 'difficulty'? No, not on paper, but they do alter the speed and the longer a run takes, the longer it can be for something to go wrong. Some can add to survivability as well, which does sort of alter the difficulty. And yes....there are damage check feats that might completely be out of the realm of possibility without the swapping boost. And yes...a feat IS part of that content.

It's not much of a stretch to assume that if swapping artis is not required, then doing a run without swapping artis should be simple, if a bit longer. To your point, if it makes so little difference, then it should be a piece of cake to find a group to do it. Again, the deck is stacked in the 'prover's favor as they could pick the 'best' scenario where the 8 players are known quantities and the run is the easiest. That's NOT even close to the real world where you likely wont' be in a group of known good players you've run with a lot, and obviously some runs are going to vary in difficulty.

What I find funny is that you are presenting as though it makes very little difference to the outcome of the run, yet we know people in game have spend 100's of $$ on 'extra' artis that the only purpose of is to BE a swap arti. Heck, I know a person that picked up the PS5 (this is a while back...easier to get now) simply because the PS4 interface was too slow to do arti swapping effectively. All that for a negligible increase? Welp...gotta spend it somewhere I guess.

LOL, nice try... You're the one asserting that you need to swap to complete E+, Don't make me do the work to prove your allegation.

It was your statement, not mine. You 'proving' my allegation would be trying and FAILING to complete E+ without them. And as there has probably never been an E+ run that was completed with no one running swaps, at least not any verifiable ones, yeah....apparently they are required. We've got a big community, I'd guess someone could convince 7 other OP tough guys to give up the crutch for 1 run.


Let me ask you....do you swap to some extent? Do people you run with swap? Have you completed E+ runs while swapping?

You can complete E+ content without swapping a single artifact, I know this, because I've done it, I did however (if you read my prior statements) explain to you that some E and E+ feats probably do require some level of artifact swapping when they involve burn checks (see Proma's Anguish as one of the best examples).

I will repeat again for your benefit, this doesn't mean artifact swapping is the problem though, it just means the developers create poorly executed feat that doesn't properly appreciate real world in game damage potential and the true solution is to simply adjust the feat.

You then went all wild mode and extrapolated my post out to be E+ requires artifact swapping period, when I never said that, If you want to make that sort of wild allegation, Reinheld, then with all due respect, you have the natural burden of proof, don't expect me to help you.

Like you've pointed out, there are some swaps that help with damage like the troll running an extra buff art or two, the group using DKS and Pstone for their orbs and supplies, and the DPS using scrap to pop supercharges more often.

There's no question that these will make the run go faster, but it's not like we're turning a 5 minute fight into a 30 second fight. We're talking about elite plus. Groups aren't melting the boss before anything bad can happen. If a group can survive for however long it takes to beat the fight while swapping, they can survive for the time it takes to beat it without swapping. Would there be marginally more wipes without swapping? Perhaps. But there's no reason it would change the overall outcome (you certainly haven't given any).

The idea that an elite plus capable group will suddenly struggle if they stopped art swapping is silly.

I don't consider any of your other points to be good arguments against what I'm saying:

• The existence of the odd damage check feat has no bearing on my argument. If a particular feat is impossible without swapping, then that is its own issue. Saying that it's "part of that content" doesn't make the very important distinction between mere completion and difficult damage check feats magically go away (the latter being irrelevant to my argument).
• You aren't going to get your video proof because elite players aren't exactly lining up to set up a run just to prove something to an individual on the forums. More importantly, the lack of such video is no way evidence that it cannot be done, especially when you consider the much more obvious reason for this lack of video: no one who is capable cares enough to do it.
• People spending a lot of money on arts is in no way an argument that elite plus cannot be done or becomes drastically harder without swapping. I also know people who spent money on swap arts and bought PS5s just to be able to swap. Players do these things because it makes them better. It's not specifically to beat elite plus.

It's also never the only reason why they're making the purchase despite any assertion that it is, that's just a ridiculously ludicrous proposition, the greater likelihood is that the person wanted the PS5 anyway and that was but one reason they were ticking off a list to mentally justify a significantly expensive purchase.

Oh, of course. When a new console comes out, mostly everyone will make the upgrade eventually, but I've definitely known people addicted enough that dc is what made them pull the trigger

No....please read again. You said E+ can be done without artifact swapping, even though you admit there are feats that may require it.
"You don't really need to artifact swap to beat E+ content, if anything there's a few feats where it crops up"
So I wanted some level of proof of that statement, like a group finishing it with no swaps. Even though YOU have not swapped in some E+ runs, I'd guess some or even many in those groups did swap. So yeah....if that's the case, arti swapping was used to complete E+. There is no I in team after all.

At what point did I twist your words to say you were indicating it was required to swap....you said the opposite of that. I know what you said....no need to repeat yourself.

But ok, no problem. I can prove MY point tonight. I'll get a random group of people in LFG and ask them not to swap....then we can run an E+ raid...maybe TSWE+. So if we fail...I guess that proves swapping is required? No? You can't prove a negative I'm afraid. That's why I was leaving it in your court. You made the positive statement (arti swapping is NOT required), at least just for completion, so that's easy to prove just by doing it.

And I've never said that arti swapping is a problem in and of itself. Go back and read any comment I've ever made on the subject. My problem is when the content is made to adapt to continuously provide a challenge, when the users are taking steps to remove the challenge at every turn. Once that happens, yeah...it kind of is required if you want to be in groups that can complete the content or get feats. Proma's anguish is a good example. Do you believe that it could be done with no swapping, or in the days prior to the EOG change....done without EOG spamming? One of these was 'fixed' already....

Hey, arti swap to your hearts content....if it makes the content 'too easy' or boring, please....keep it to yourself before we get E++ 'Omega gold challenge' level.

PS...not saying you've said the content is too easy or boring....but a lot of people do...I'd guess many of those 'elite' players are swappers too.

If you'd run any E+ content you wouldn't be asking me to prove this to you, you'd already know it lol, you'd realize that you were asking me to waste my time proving something you'd already know was true.

The only reason you're even sitting here asking me is because you're a casual player and you suspect I'm lying.

And if in that first 'marginally more wipes' wipe that happens, when you are the 5th DPS and not a swapper...will you still be around for the 2nd attempt if there is another player available who'd arguable put up more burn while swapping? Or a troll who's not in their inventory at least 3 or 4 times a minute if a different 'buff' troll is around? Dude I got kicked from a group while tanking just for not using SS and that was a perfectly smooth run.

And I never said they did it just to beat Elite+. As there are many who swap in event seasonal runs or EEG, I'd say they just have something to prove....to someone...who knows?

Like it or not, in a group of random players attempting to run E+, or Elite even, it WILL make a difference, same as a few 100SP when you were already maxed on your main stat, would. And in the end, the SP probably mean even less than the swaps. Not a lot of groups out there asking what your SP is, right? Can you get in an E+ group without swapping? Sure. Can you complete the run without swapping yourself? Sure. Will you ever get the opportunity if there are 8 other players who will swap to fill the group? Depends on the group I suppose.

I'd still like to know what you guys believe the purpose of swapping is if it makes such a negligible difference to the run? I mean 100's of dollars in artis, a decent amount of practice, a good handful of YouTube videos on the subject...all for a few seconds of quicker run? Sheesh...some people need a different hobby I guess.

Didn't say you were lying...I'm saying you are wrong.

Hahahahahahahahaha. thanks for confirming my prior post.

I actually HAVE run E+. ROEE+...one time...it ended up being a failed run at over an hour as a few dropped out... but I was shooting to get a feat and I saw them shouting for a while for a tank. And yeah, there were some swappers, unless someone was just ALWAYS running DKS in their LO (doubtful) as I saw at least that one several times (probably 2 or 3 swapping it really). Didn't notice any Pstones, but as I was tanking, I wasn't really paying attention as I wasn't going to run out and get any of either of those. Personally I didn't swap, but I think we all know swapping is primarily a DPS or troll thing. Could a Tank do it, yes....but it's not as much a requirement, and a tank in their inventory too much might be it's own problem, depending on the run. Healer....other than EOG, I'm not sure what else the 'experts' would suggest to swap, and as most of those are 10K SCs now, it's only going to get swapped every min or so, not 6x a min. I did see some EOG green circles though...so maybe some healer swappers too.

Personally, E+ probably wouldn't be my thing even if swapping never existed. I don't really like having runs that could take 2 hours...I just don't want to spend that much time in ANY single thing in this game. Most nights I'm not on for 2 hours total, much less on 1 toon. As I said, I more object to the fact that there needs to be a constant 'new' challenge as people find things to cheese to remove the existing challenge.

And from that you drew the conclusion that swapping was mandatory? wild.

Art swapping is not currently needed to beat any content. This simple comes down to what is happening within a raid. The main benefit from art swapping comes down to higher damage output. There is currently no dps checks that require players to do x amount of damage that is so high only those who swap can get past it. Art swapping will make content go quicker which is different than beating content. As proxy has said, some feats will lean towards needing some level of swapping. This of course is, again, different than beating content (IE requiring swapping to beat it).

If you look back at DMe (I think). The one that has the boss with the pillars that will occasionally be destroyed. If you don’t beat the boss within the multiple phases then it is a wipe. If this was a mechanic in elite plus that required art swapping to beat then it would be a different story. But it’s not.

Can swapping make things easier? Yes (when come correctly. A lot do it wrong). But making things easier is not the same as requiring it.

Yes there will always be some that have the stipulation of art swapping in order to join their own group. However they have every right to run with whatever rules they want. You can always make your own group that doesn’t have that requirement. And players also have the right to not join too.

Personally no feat should require swapping. There are always outliers. Whether the devs do something about it or not is a different topic.

No one has said that the increase in damage, or the decrease in the time it takes to burn a boss, that swapping makes is negligible. We are saying that it does not increase the difficulty of the content to the extent that it should change the outcome, i.e., the group's ability to complete said content. The thing you are arguing against is such common sense to most elite players that it makes this whole conversation seem rather silly.

Frankly, your claim does not make any logical sense. I want to re-emphasize that most, if not all, of the swaps happening in elite plus are for damage. If an elite plus capable group lost a dps early in the fight, would they suddenly have no chance of finishing the fight? Or, do you believe that an LFG group has a chance of beating elite plus with art swapping? If so, what about a group of much better players whose collective damage without swapping is higher than the LFG group's with swapping?

With all due respect, your comments convey a lack of experience in elite plus as well as a distorted sense of the impact of art swapping. You haven't made any good arguments to support your claim. All you've said is, "then why do people art swap?" which is a question with its own obvious answers.

If you still want to consider this topic with an open mind, in the absence of the video proof that we both know isn't coming, I think it would help to really delve into the details of the scenarios we're discussing and try to see whether those details support or refute your belief.

No....that's not where I'd draw the conclusion from. It's from our community that spends a lot of time yelling 'too easy' all while taking steps to make things more easy.

Again, I'd love to see if there has ever been a group to complete an E+ raid with no swapping in the GROUP. Not because it's impossible to do so, just that it's just expected.

As much as I can't prove it's mandatory, you have to admit it's pretty common place in most 'elite' groups.

2 hours?...