GU73: Celestial

Discussion in 'Stats Revamp Archive' started by Mepps, Jul 14, 2017.

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  1. Derio Steadfast Player

    1.7 increased damage on a couple of celestial abilities. Not going to question the skill level of other players parses. However Innate power regen does not take into consideration combo time. Example would be casting PcDL assuming you let the animation run its full course, you already regenerate a good amount of power from inputting those combos.

    However other powers outside of HL, Water, and Atomic are all instant cast powers to where the innate power regen can seem low due to how fast they can cast their powers as opposed to combo powers.

    Then you have to factor in mobility.

    IMO celestial dps power cost needs more side by side comparisons to other powersets which I think they are hoping for when the revamp goes live. For now I would not adjust them.

    But the healing power cost, yea I would adjust those
    • Like x 2
  2. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    This is the footage showing how efficient is Celestial in DPS role while maintaining competitive damage output:
    • Like x 2
  3. Ringz Dedicated Player

    The real question should be asked did Little Judy get those noble legs?
  4. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    Typical day at test server
  5. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Nice job with those tests. It's obvious celestial is regening too much power compared to other powers (especially other combo powers like Atomic and HL). The only thing is the devs have to be really careful with messing with celestial's power. Why? There is literally no other way to play that power than PftT. Atomic combos demand PftT too, but at least atomic has other options as well that can be used for Hybrid if you want. HL has the option of chaining together low cost combos to maintain power topped off.

    Why is this important? Because if the devs are not careful, there will be no way a celestial player can ever get the 20% damage buff from trollers.

    I don't know what you think but it looks like it's way too easier to stay powered with one troll who was barely even draining his power bar.
    • Like x 2
  6. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    I wish cele can have its own passive regen rate completely different from other powers while in DPS, maybe that would fix it.
  7. Ala Rebeldex Loyal Player

    I think that something needs to be done obviously, but like you said, it has to be done carefully and without impact how the powerset performs on healer role, because the cost of the standart Celestial healer loadout is too high.

    One suggestion that Fatal made, is change the cost of the powers on DPS role, which seems fair to me; but going to address the recent buff that superpowered gain in bonuses (10% power + 25% power regen) i think that they are too much, i know that some people are going to disagree with me, but you guys saw the footage, we were more than fine with just one troller, the only one who was running out of power was Mighty, but we already have given feedback about how bad is the power consumption for HL to keep up in damage with the rest of the powersets clipping.
    • Like x 2
  8. Derio Steadfast Player

    Im starting to think its animation lapse that make celestial power regen higher. Around .6s in transition from WotPcCs. And even longer for PcDL and DLcP. Not going to consider 100 power cost moves simply because those moves are designed with the playstyle and practically instant cast. In a 30s rotation depending on your clipping speed and how long you let combo animation play out, you can get about 8s of just combo animation. In that 8s every other powerset, rage, HL, and atomic can get roughly 4 moves maybe more will have to test to see, especially with HL.

    I think power regen for other powers need to be brought up, but you have to consider balance in those 30s parsers. And it only gets wider in 60s parsers.
  9. Black Jaq Devoted Player

    IDK. I started thinking about Munitions tonight and I set up PI with Flak Cannon and then running 3 or 4 channels back into Flak Cannon. My power bar did not drop significantly with each rotation. I probably would eventually run low but it would take a while. So Munitions channels put it in a similar situation.
  10. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Yeah, I think that dialing back on the power regen a bit is fine and then maybe tweaking the powers that are struggling with it on an individual basis would be good. I get that the devs want to create specific rules as much as possible for balance, and that makes sense, but they might need to fine-tune things on an individual basis in the future. Either way, things are pretty close.
    • Like x 1
  11. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    Yeah, the deal isn't really power cost per se, but total dps potential of the powers. If celestial has tons of power, fine (though you don't want trolls to be not needed in content either) but the question is, is it sitting OK dps-wise (same with munitions) roughly compared to other powers. Why? Because there is literally no way to play Celestial any faster than you are. Same with munitions. Hard Light, on the other hand, doesn't have to be as power-hungry as it is. It's that way only when you use tons of powers and not many constructs. So the question is, can you burn through power and produce more dps than celestial is capable of? That's what I'm wondering (and going to test this instant).
    • Like x 1
  12. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    After really thinking about this, me and charm decided to do some testing trying to figure out a solution that doesn't poop on anyone.

    We messed with different healer set ups, sat at the dummies and she simulated running a raid while I trolled and gave her power, testing different power pool sizes. Her resto spec power pool was 17 k, and i struggled hard with it, as so did she. She then swapped to her power spec, which the only difference between that and resto spec was her mods were resto/power and she was specced into power mastery instead of hybrid. Her power pool was just shy of 23 k. So what does a difference of almost 6 k power make?

    I was able to keep her practically maintained by myself spamming instant power dumps at 23 k power a lot better then I did when she was 17k. She felt 23 was the "sweet" spot that all healer powers should be at. So now where am I going with this exactly you're probably wondering?

    On live servers, healers have the largest power pool. DPS and trolls have around medium sized pools and tanks have the smallest power pools. If this same set up was used for the revamp, it would fix the healer role discrepancy with power, as well as allow celestial combo costs to be increased to 300 without impacting the healer side too heavily, which would put it more in line with other combo powers consumption wise for dps.

    Only issues that would arise from this are powers such as electric that aren't that power hungry in healer role possibly being too good on consumption.

    Anyways, thats the best compromise we can come up with without breaking any guidelines, I know how much you devs love those damn guidelines.... lol.
    • Like x 3
  13. Fatal Star 10000 Post Club

    Also wanna report a bug: if you clip powers with guardians light fast enough without having enough power to cast both, it'll glitch your toon and keep you in the GL animation for >10 seconds, look into this please, would hate to have that happen in an SM run.
    • Like x 2
  14. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player

    To add on to this (was too tired last night). When I say the "sweet spot" for power I mean it became manageable for the troll to keep me up on power (roughly at half). This still makes trolls useful and very much needed with out handicapping Celestial and Nature who struggle so badly for power costs/consumption. With Celestial I can set up my 3 burst/HoTs and have an empty power bar. With Nature I can setup the pheromones and my power bar is completely empty. This leaves absolutely no room for an emergent situation to happen. For Celestial specifically you have to reapply those Burst/HoTs very quickly because they are only 6 tick HoTs. At this rate with a full Restoration spec/mod you will not have the power to maintain your HoTs. This is also while exhausting all of your resources such as soder, supply, & accomplice. With this power pool you can effectively maintain your HoTs without it being too OP and rendering trolls useless. I really hope this is something the Dev's take into consideration since the healing community has begged for a power cost reduction for healing (mainly Celestial and Nature). If power costs for healing won't be reduced this is the best alternate solution to solve the power issues that Celestial and Nature suffer from.

    Additional Healing Feedback:
    • HoTs for all powersets still need a buff across the board as they are not mitigating the incoming damage as they should be. This creates the need to be more spammy which I do not want.
    • Divine Light (Virtuous Light) needs an individual buff on the HoT. The HoT currently puts up 6 ticks of 348 (with a base resto of almost 12k). That in no way shape, form, or fashion justifies a 450 power cost. The best thing for DL/VL is still to bring back the purification PI. You (the devs) may not have found it to be a "reliable" tool in the Celestial healing kit, but as a main healer I can tell you it was. It wasn't necessarily for the group but more so the tank. If you had a boss fight with a lot of adds it helped the tank in a tremendous way. Also high rounds SM it was very beneficial to maintain it for your tanks. Basically to sum it up, It was a situational burst/HoT for the tank depending on the content/environment. Putting the PI back would definitely justify the 450 power cost, but if that can't happen at least giving it a good buff on the HoT is mandatory because right now it's pretty pointless to have.
    • Admonish cooldown needs to be reduced down to 2s (yes I understand the guideline for 4 man bursts). If you have to reduce all 4 man bursts to 2s to make it fair and balanced that's fine as long as Admonish is at a 2s cooldown. The reason this is important is because of high stress situations. During high stress situations rotating CS and AcB is the go-to move for Celestial healing (pure heals). For example HH SM when you have Stompa/Batwoman, the tank who has Stompa has to body block her to keep her from wiping the group while Batwoman is being burned. Dependent on the tank and tank power this will cause a ton of damage coming in on this tank since they aren't kiting. In a situation like this where your tank is taking in way more than you can mitigate apply HoTs when necessary you need to rotate CS and AcB. DL and Blessing have a cooldown so that makes them not an option for this type of high stress situation (although you do need to keep DL up). Admonish having a 3s cooldown makes it impossible to effectively rotate CS AcB. It makes it clunky waiting that split second for AcB to come off cooldown. That split second can be a game changer for the tank body blocking Stompa in HH SM and not a good one either.
    • Consecrated Ground needs to be reduced back to a 50% supercharge. All the other healing powers have their best SC's on a 50% SC yet Celestial is sitting at 100% on Consecrated Ground? That doesn't seem very balanced imo. Sorcery has its best healing SC (Arbiter of Destiny) as a 50% SC so I don't feel like this decision is being based on the strength of the SC its self. Having CG on as a 50% SC is an extremely useful tool in Celestial's healing kit for harder/challenging content such as Elite content and SM's. Putting this as a 100% SC is going to handicap the Celestial healer in those types of content where other healing powers will be able to have 2 SC's on bar to use at will.
    • Power costs either need to be cut or the higher power stat implemented on healer gear to accommodate powers such as Celestial and Nature.
    Overall these are the changes I feel are best for Celestial healing to finish making it perfect to go to Live on Wednesday. I main heal with Celestial on Live so please don't ruin my baby lol. :p I ask you take into consideration my reasoning for each request as well as my experience with Celestial healing and implement the necessary changes.
    • Like x 1
  15. Celestial Powers Committed Player

    This actually also can explain why now the DPS and tank roles barely use any power too, the tank power pools have been buffed up a lot, you can see this from Fatals Fire Tank PoV in DWF, they rarely go under 60% and so it does undermine the need of a controller for them, same thing with the DPS, since they have the biggest power pools now on top of the possibility that the superpower focus may be a bit too strong right now.

    But the thing that concerns me, she switched to the superpowered focus and said she didn't struggle, I mean it feels like this just shows that the issue of "too much power" in this update lies more and more with the new focus than anything else. I know it may have felt nice for her in that stance but for DPS it's ridiculous...

    With the Electric thing you can see from my DWF healing PoV though, it was fairly power hungry at 189 and I'd assume it'd be even more power hungry at intended CR. But this all depends on other stuff I mentioned on my post in the main revamp thread like mechanic damage and basic enemy damage.
  16. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player

    I wanted to expand a little more on the power cost/consumption issues for Celestial a little more.

    1.) The current power costs for the standard pure healing loadout for Celestial:
    • Consume Souls- 3360 (Burst/HoT)
    • AdmonishcBlight- 7840 (Burst/HoT)
    • Renew- 2800 (Priority)
    • Divine Light- 5040 (Burst/HoT)
    • Blessing- 3360 (4 man shield)
    Total cost for setting up the 3 Burst/HoT- 16,240
    Total cost for one of each- 22,400

    2.) With a 201 CR, full Special Forces Restoration modded, Special Forces Restoration and Power Generator mods, 1 sp in movement, 1 sp in Superpowered Mastery, 60 sp in Crit Heals, and 175 sp in Restoration you'll have the following stats:
    • Restoration- 19,455
    • Dominance- 122
    • Power- 19,455
    Ok, using the costs I stated earlier here's what it looks like for Celestial healing in terms of power cost/consumption vs power pool:
    I have 19,455 power pool. If I use 16,240 power to setup the 3 Burst/HoTs that leaves me with a remainder of 3,215. That is only enough power to hit Renew (priority) once if something were to happen after setting up the those Burst/HoTs. The HoT for each one is 6 ticks, so basically the troll(s) have to replenish 16,240 power for me to be able to reapply them as the 6 ticks are winding up which is a matter of seconds. If I were to apply the 3 HoTs and needed (because of AoE etc) to hit Blessing and either Renew or Admonish clipped to Renew (dependent on the severity of the situation) I wouldn't have the power to do so.

    3.) With a 201 CR, full Special Forces Restoration modded, Special Forces Restoration and Power Generator mods, 1 sp in movement, 1 sp in Hybrid Mastery, 60 sp in Crit Heals, and 175 sp in Restoration (max Restoration available) you'll have the following stats:
    • Restoration- 11,971
    • Dominance- 128
    • Power- 17,763
    Ok, using the costs I stated earlier here's what it looks like for Celestial healing in terms of power cost/consumption vs power pool:
    I have 17,763 power pool (lower to gain the 5% Restoration buff). If I use 16,240 power to setup the 3 Burst/HoTs that leaves me with a remainder of 1,523...That isn't even enough to hit priority after if it were necessary and since that's the case I won't even go into not having the power to apply anything else if it were an emergent situation occurring after applying the HoTs like AoE because it's obvious what would happen at this point.

    The point in doing this was to show that even opting for the higher power pool by using the Superpowered Mastery it still isn't enough to efficiently heal with Celestial. If you opt for the 5% Restoration boost you most definitely won't be able to be power efficient. Having that much of a strain on Celestial players isn't fair. You're asking them to choose between a buff to their main stat or having a slightly higher power pool in a pathetic attempt to keep up with the power costs of Celestial healing.

    Regardless which mastery you choose Celestial is very inefficient in regards to power consumption. Either the power costs need to be reduced for healing or the power pool in healer gear needs to be raised to roughly the 23k I mentioned earlier being the "sweet spot" for me. Hope this helped clear up exactly why I think power costs/consumption is an issue for Celestial healing.
    • Like x 2
  17. Juiceman936 Well-Known Player

    Thanx for posting this video! This clearly is the evidence needed. Plz reduce power given and heals received. This was a 189 cr raid group and the whole raid the blue and green bars were full with the exception of a couple hard hits from the bosses.

    Raid gr - cr 189

    Bosses adds - cr 201

    And no real struggle for heals or power.

    I know cr doesn't mean too much with revamp but the gap should be that wide
  18. Shark Dental Devoted Player

    I know you really want to go for that extra resto, but 1 question. What would happen powerwise if you invested 20 sp (+4% max power) in might and only 155 in resto? Does that help your overall healing? Just curious.
  19. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player

    If you spec into Might/Power over the Restoration you are going to weaken your heals. Something you need to keep in mind is that healers on live server are most definitely going to spec into Restoration first and foremost. After that people who have enough SP will spec into dominance because of our healing formula. People who don't have enough SP to even fill up the Restoration on live server would be hurting tremendously from sacrificing the restoration. I intentionally placed only the minimum number of sp's for crits and resto for the purpose of players who don't have over 240 to get max stats plus extra power. this is an issue that doesn't have a real work around without losing somewhere. That's why the 2 suggestions I named are there.
  20. Charmed Legacy Dedicated Player

    EDIT: Additional information provided by our Main Controller Hollow Dreamz:

    ~412-446 pot
    ~1055-1098 dump
    31% chance
    46% mag

    412-446 pot

    ~429 pot, ticks every 2 seconds
    12870 pot in 60 seconds.

    ~1076 dump, every 1.5 seconds
    43040 dump in 60 seconds.

    30 pot ticks in a minute
    40 dump ticks in a minute

    9 pot crits
    12 dump crits


    197 pot crit dif
    494 dump crit dif

    9*197 = 1773 pot crit total
    12*494 = 5928 dump crit total

    12870+43040+1773+5928= 63611 power in 60 seconds.
    1060.18333 per second.

    6361 power from the troll in 6s.

    972.76 power per sec. from passive regen*6s=5836.5

    total = 12197 in 6 seconds from passive & troll.

    ~4000 power short every 6 seconds.
    • Like x 1
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