Extra Life 2019 - I'm not sure I want to help kids

Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by MsTickle Fate, Oct 14, 2019.

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  1. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    I hate to be negative about a charity effort, but after doing some checking:

    I prefer, as a rule, to support organizations that Charity Navigator rates. This is a purely personal preference.


    I find it faintly troubling that Wikipedia claims:
    It's troubling because:

    a) if it were true, "3 out of 4" seems to open many questions, as in "why not 4 out of 4?"

    b) It is, as you can see by the link to Charity Navigator, an untrue claim. Charity Navigator does not, in fact, list them at all.

    On top of that, give.org, aka "the Be Wise Giving Alliance," also has no rating for them. "Children's Miracle Network" are not on the Better Business Bureau's Accredited Charity List.

    Neither does Charity Watch, aka the "American Institute of Philanthropy," list them.

    The FTC specifically suggests not donating to any charity not on these lists.

    The Federal Trade Commission says specifically:

    And none of them verifies "Children's Miracle Network Hospitals."

    To be sure, none of the charity-rating organizations claim that if they haven't rated a charity it therefore is not legitimate. I'm not claiming otherwise.

    What I'm saying, though, is that I'm personally not inclined to donate to a charity that can't be verified by any agency whatsoever that the FTC says you should verify a charity with. Not one. It is listed by Guidestar.org, but there is no information there about Children's Miracle Network aside from what SMN self-reports; there is no access to any financial or other supporting information unless you pay Guidestar money to see it.

    To repeat: I'm in no way claiming Children's Miracle Netwrok is illegitimate; it obviously has convinced many huge companies to support it.

    But it isn't approved by any FTC-recommended charity guide and isn't listed by Charity Navigator specifically because CN says it doesn't receive most of its funding from the public, in any case. I reserve my donations for charities I can verify with an FTC-approved charity-evaluating organization. Just a personal preference.

    The numbers I can find are these: In 2016, Children's Miracle Network (Utah) claimed income of $45,220,233.

    $20,744,103 of that is reported as going to "salaries, other compensation, employee benefits."

    So that's a big "nope" from me. Sorry. I'm sticking with supporting organizations I can verify via the FTC-approved charity-verification tools.

    Also: a moment's googling finds this:

    Children's Miracle Network CEO accused of fraud

    That was 2008, to be sure, but, still: not exactly reassuring.
    • Like x 3
  2. Mepps Sr. Community Manager

    Thank you for your interest and careful research.

    Extra Life donations support hospitals directly. Our team members have chosen to support our local Children's Miracle Network Hospital, Dell Children's Ascension at the Dell Children's Medical Center of Central Texas.



    • Like x 12
  3. tinoman Dedicated Player

    Yes I have a hard time supporting donations when some cases 90% goes to salaries. I want receipts and what money was used for.
    • Like x 3
  4. agent whitecell Steadfast Player

    He must hate kids. Kids are the future sir
    • Like x 3
  5. Zoe· Favored of Olympus

    Eh...this thread was divided from the actual extra life thread, so Fate didn't choose that title. P:
    • Like x 3
  6. agent whitecell Steadfast Player

    Idk if to believe you. I think he just hates kids
    • Like x 2
  7. Zoe· Favored of Olympus

    You can always ask Mepps ;) and lol
    • Like x 2
  8. Hraesvelg Loyal Player

    • Like x 1
  9. nawanda Dedicated Player

    I wonder if there is a worthy charity local to the OP that would have benefited from the time it took him to reseaarch, write and format his post. Was it really necessary to make a song and dance about this on the forums? If you don’t wish to donate, don’t.
    • Like x 4
  10. Proxystar #Perception

    If even some or most of the money goes to charity then who cares, there's always going to be some admin costs in running charities and as long as some good comes out of it that's all I care about.

    If the contributions change even one childs life for the better then that's all that matters.
    • Like x 8
  11. Irvynnge Dedicated Player

    & there's your closer. 'nuff said.
    • Like x 1
  12. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    • Warning: The DCUO forums are for everyone. Please be respectful, constructive, and kind. Please welcome contrasting views and stay on topic. Do not insult or attack anyone.
    Thanks for the response, Mepps.

    I do wish to note for the record, however, that my post was left as a comment on the Announcement thread; the decision to make it a separate thread, while an entirely reasonable choice and one I am fine with, was made by Mepps, as was his pointed choice of thread title.

    It's because I'm entirely sure I want to help kids, and not administrators, that I want to be sure to support charities I can verify via FTC-recommended professional charity evaluators.

    Half of this chartity's contributions go to salaries, though. I'm reasonably sure they probably don't have hospitalized children receiving those salaries, that half the contributed money will apparently go to.

    The figures come directly from their IRS filing: https://990s.foundationcenter.org/990_pdf_archive/870/870387205/870387205_201612_990.pdf

    I have zero interest in arguing with anyone about this, or with interfering in DCUO's charity drive, but I'm not making up the figures. They're straight from Children's Miracle Network IRS form for 2016:

    Half of people's donations goes to salaries. Half.

    I have no idea if this fact is connected to the lack of recommendation by Charity Navigator, etc., but it does tell me that at least half of any money I donate most certainly isn't going to help children. Children's Miracle Network directly say so themselves in their IRS form.

    I'd ask if Daybreak Games couldn't find a charity with more than azero rating from Charity Navigator:

    Needless to say, $45,220,233 revenue from all sources minus $20,744,103 spent on "Salaries, other compensation, employee benefits" means that $24,476,120 is left, which is means that 45.873498705767% of their revenue/income goes to pay management, which is significantly higher than the 30% that is necessary to give this charity a zero according to Charity Navigator.

    Can't Daybreak find a charity that gets at least a score of 5, even if it can't get to 9, 8, 7, or 6? Does it have to be a charity that rates literally ZERO on Charity Navigator's recommendations? Can't it find a charity that gets even a score of ONE? Even TWO? THREE? FOUR? ZERO is a pretty egregiously low recommendation score. Charity Navigator is quite explicit as to how it rates such charities, even while refusing to give Children's Miracle Network any rating at all:

    45% spent on salaries, therefore, is not "reasonable" and gets Children's Miracle Network less than a "C."

    I realize that Daybreak is extremely unlikely to change their choice of charity now, and that this choice is not new. But I'm not making any of this up.

    It's a charity that gets a big fat ZERO from Charity Navigator. That seems problematic to me, if not to anyone at Daybreak. I prefer to give money to charities that get at least a 7.5, if not a 10, and certainly not to one where almost half the money goes to the charity's employees and NOT to children.

    Maybe these numbers bother only me. It wouldn't be the first time.

    And if anyone has some other numbers to cite, please do, by all means.

    That is all.
    • Like x 1
  13. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

  14. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    If you don't care where your charitable dollars go, and if they actually help anyone, that's certainly a choice.

    Sure, why bother to check facts? Let's just disbelieve every FTC-recommended charity evaluator. What would the FTC know about it?
  15. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    The Federal Trade Commission:

    Or, you know, don't.

    But if you actually care about helping people, you'll check on a charity before believing every charity is legitimate.

    Would that that were true.

    And would that it didn't matter if 45% or more of your donation goes only to line the pockets of people with six-figure incomes profiting off the gullibility of people who think it's a great idea to just give to any "charity" that asks.
  16. Proxystar #Perception

    You are categorically taking this way too far dude, with due respect, take a chill pill and calm down, it's still a worthwhile charity and twitch streamers have been doing Extra Life streams for a long time.

    It is categorically Daybreak's choice as to what charity, if any, they want to support, it is categorically the users choice to decide to donate to that charity or the Daybreak stream in question.

    I am sure there are plenty of other charities out there that also need help, there are probably plenty of other charities out there that give a higher % of the donated funds to the specific charity in question and have less admin costs.

    But you're sitting here acting like this is a "scam" is borderline laughable and all you're really doing is trying to discourage people from participating in what you're asserting is a scam simply because it doesn't have the same rating as some other charities.

    Newsflash if you feel those other charities are so important go off and donate to them, ask other people to donate to them but really dude, don't come in someone elses attempt to raise awareness and obtain donations to a charity and effectively **** all over it with this nonsense, this poor form dude, poor form indeed.

    Donating to this cause is not a scam, so with respect sit down and relax.
    • Like x 8
  17. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player


    The 2017 figures: https://resources.childrensmiraclenetworkhospitals.org/cdn/docs/2017/LegalDocs/990.pdf

    Thanks. This form says that their total revenue for 2017 was $45,428, 205 and that "salaries, other compensation, and employee benefits" cost $20,562,044, does it not?

    So you're verifying that well over 40% of the revenue goes to management costs, again putting it into a Zero rating from Charity Navigator.


    I'm extremely unclear how this refutes my finding that over 40% of the revenue doesn't go to kids.

    Am I reading the form wrong? Because you seem to be confirming what I previously wrote. Am in error in noting these figures that you have supplied and which state that over 40% of the revenue does not, in fact, help children?

    Honestly, I'd be extremely happy to find that these figures weren't true, and that most of the money goes to kids.

    But the evidence seems to say otherwise. Doesn't it?
  18. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    That's nice, but numbers are numbers.

    Absolutely. But the numbers are the numbers. I'm not the one spending over 40% of the money (which isn't just donations, but investment returns and every other form of income) on salaries.

    If the fact that this charity violates Charity Navigator guidelines on spending is bothersome, it's not by my choice.

    If the numbers in the IRS filing are wrong, than that's most definitely fraud. If they're correct, they're a charity that violates all the FTC-recommended organizational charitable guidelines.

    I'm sorry if this makes anyone uncomfortable, but the numbers are the numbers. I'm not making them up. It's what their filings say and what the charity recommendation sites say and what the FTC says. If anyone doesn't it like the numbers, take it up with the FTC, Charity Navigator, Children's Miracle Hospitals, etc., not me.
  19. Proxystar #Perception

    Would you rather there be no charity at all? If you're so upset about it don't try and tear someone elses charity drive down, make your own one.
    • Like x 5
  20. MsTickle Fate Devoted Player

    This is silly. There are endless numbers of charities rated by Charity Navigator, et al., as 10, or 9, or 8, or 7, or 6, or 5.

    I'm not "upset." I'm quoting the IRS and the company's own figures.

    This one gets a zero from Charity Navigator because:
    If you want to argue with Charity Navigator and the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, which regulates charities in the U.S., be my guest.

    These all score 100, rather than 0:

    10 Highly Rated Charities Relying on Private Contributions

    People should certainly support whatever charity they wish to. Why anyone would object to checking a charity's ratings by the sites the FTC recommends everyone check charities with, I have no idea, any more than I know why anyone would object to anyone researching verifiable facts or hoping that people give to verified good charities.
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