Discussion in 'Gotham City (General Gameplay)' started by The Dark4, Apr 27, 2022.
I like the idea
Hmm introduuce a whole new role called the Buff /Battle Troll with a new icon hmmmmmmmm intresting
And you can beat content with all tanks of all dps. That doesn’t change the fact that trolls are still vital. You can’t do all content with a bunch of tanks. Does that mean dps are useless? Trolls give more than just power. They also have debuffs.
If you look at alerts yes people mostly run 3 dps and a healer. Does that make it the most optimal set up? No. Yes you get the roleless buff. But if the adds are scattered they take longer. So having tank even a dps in tank role will keep things gathered to kill them faster. Same with the troll. Even having a dps in troll role will make it home faster.
So CAN content be done without a troll? Yes. Does it go faster without a troll? No.
The issue is that this is what you want. Not all trolls want to be power trolls. Some find being batteries boring. For the longest time trolls were just walking batteries and so many people were complaining about this.
The power drain mechanic is a terrible idea. Sorry but it is. What happens if the troll dies? The healers run out of power and group dies because there’s a power drain? Power healing doesn’t work like health healing. A group can have constant damage and healers will be just fine because they have different ways to heal the group up. A troll would only have PoT and group power dump with a few other situational forms of power back. So a group being constantly drained would not be able to be powered by a troll.
Regarding dominance. Trolls already have to spec into vit, power, and health (power and health depending on type of troll) you want them to also be force to spec into dominance as well? Sorry but just no. There is already a dom check in the game which allows only trolls and tanks to CC increasing to where both roles have to spec into it would just hurt trolls. So this should just never happen.
The rao is already perfectly balanced. I could see you asking for other troll arts to be buffed but rao? This would just make it a mandatory art and will make troll HAVE to build even more arts.
And 4 arts for trolls? No. Just no.
There are already enemies that need debuffing. Not sure what you’re talking about but trolls need to debuff. If a troll is not debuffing than they are being a bad troll. Defense debuffs make enemies take more damage. Damage debuff makes them deal less damage and for those that heal you have the healing debuff. They are already important.
Green buffs for bosses are already a thing. Again, debuffs are important and if you aren’t debuffing than you are trolling badly. Forcing them to have such huge buffs unless debuffed just makes it a cheap mechanic.
One of a few roles? There are only 4 roles. And you can beat content without any one of them for reg. You doesn’t make it optimal. Trolls are vital for optimal groups. It’s basic numbers.
Meh, that run is a bit tweaked because of Lex's supply drops. It would be like saying you need 2 trolls because of the LB in TSD with the power drain effect leaving a healer/tank empty. It's not all on the innate power management ability of the players.
I will agree though that with Cyborg(or without) and a good SP allocation power management is not that tough...no where as bad as it was in the old days where you might run with 2 trolls for POT and dumps separately.
Not sure if I'd want a major change, but it would be nice if the 'control' aspect were brought back in more often. I remember in AnB you needed a troll just to handle the manhunters, and even as recent as M2, PC raid has the suppressor which is best handled by the troll keeping it stunned vs repeatedly burning for the whole boss fight. With the removal of having to throw POT, some of the challenge is gone for sure.
There's only two playstyles: power and group buff. Both of those playstyles use debuffs. If you were going to count a third it would be a battle control setup but you would still fall into one of the other two categories (Power or Group Buff).
It's actually a simple idea: Group Breakouts for tanks give a heal (except Ice, which gives a shield). If they were to move Group Breakouts over to the controller role they could attach a group Power Heal to that ability. So you would have a choice of using the Group Breakout/Power Heal for a power troll setup OR staying with the traditional Group Weapon Buff to proc Claw of Aelkhund in a group buff build.
I believe that for most of their surveys there is a way to voice your concerns about something like this - even if the survey itself is limited in that option.
In other words - "When / If a survey is trying to limit your responses to it one should - "MAKE" a way to respond in a way you believe is needed"...........
If I recall there was a comment section in some surveys I've filled out in the past with them.
If one feels limited further then I'd send a respectful PM to Mepps - which I am considering. The only problem with this is that there needs to be A COMMUNITY OF CONTROLLERS that comment / complain / voice their concerns.
A nobody like myself will have their concerns tossed aside.
But MANY concerns - voiced respectfully - will get some attention.
The parts that I colorized and enlarged are what I wanted to highlight.
The rest, while important to you, are your experiences with the role of Controller and doesn't speak for anyone else's experiences.
Anyone else who is an experienced player - whether Tank, Heal OR Dps - can go into the ins and outs and details of the role just like I did with the Controller Role in this thread and others.
My suggestions throughout this thread as to ways to improve the role of Controller by no means should be construed that it is an unnecessary role. If any took it that way then they are mistaken. If anything it is a way to get the PLAYER BASE'S attention of the role and hopefully change perceptions of it.
Such perceptions / changes - can and oftentimes are brought about by Dev intervention in the form of some fancy "Artifact" or some untimely "Nerf" or "Buff"to an artifact or such. With this comment I am meaning the seeming unbalance with Dps-specific Arts and Controller arts in this game. This is why I asked for changes to the "Rao Amulet".
The reality is that - whether or not it is one's choice to run with 4-5 DPS in a raid - even an ELITE raid - should give one an open eye to the imbalance in this game.
Even in COMIC BOOKS (which this game IS based on, apparently) - Superheroes and Villains sometimes don't win by MIGHT.
Sometimes, these Superheroes and Villains win by CUNNING. Might doesn't always make right.
It is time to change our perceptions.
Whether or not the game goes back to "Two - Trolling" or not is irrelevant, to me. The BIGGER question, though, is why have we sat back and accepted 4-5 DPS in the game - even in ELITE content - as "Normal"?
In the COMIC BOOKS - which this game IS based off of - does Might always make RIGHT? I don't think so...not always.
As I've said in many places throughout this thread and others - just because one is SILENT doesn't mean one is happy with some changes or direction the game is taking.
And this "Artifact Swapping"....is another thing I'm unhappy about with this game but I've seen the Devs comments on it and I doubt anything will be done about it.
I've personally never did it and never will.
To ME - for my "Comic Book Experience" in DCUO, LOOL - this is what "Artifact Swapping" means:
"Hey Darkseid - hold off on that Omega Beam while I switch Artifacts, ok?"
Thanks for this. One of the players in our group thought I needed the Cog, which I don't have (yet).
Even CRAZIER is that NOW - there are EVIDENTLY ARTIFACTS you need to have in your inventory for a FEAT to pop, which seems ODD at best..................
Again - this "Artifact Swapping" just seems unreal and I'll never do it.
It just doesn't seem "Comic-Booky" to me.
Taking a pause - even if it is for just a second - could mean insta-death.
For Number 1 - if ONE Controller dies then ANOTHER Controller - even if a DPS has to SWITCH - should be able to take his / her spot.
Forget their "Pew Pew" for a while and stand in for the Controller that went down.
Additionally - one of the absolute BEST raids EVER in this game was Darkseid's War Factory - which had / has Power Drain mechanics and we ALL adjusted to it. The drain was not constant in this raid and eventually just one COMPETENT Controller could solo the raid. But for a while with that raid at LEAST one dps had to be ready to switch to Controller just in case.
I personally see nothing wrong with such mechanics coming back in a future raid and such is sorely missed.
For number 2 - didn't - at one time a LONG time ago in this game - a Controller's DOMINANCE numbers were actually tied to how long they could STUN an opponent?
Wasn't that true at one time?
If so that would be AWESOME.....speccing DOM for a Controller to help hold some adds in place - not BOSSES, granted - but ADDS....all based off of the strength of a Controller's DOMINANCE and HIGHER DOM giving a Controller LONGER STUNS?
Controllers DO STUN, right? This would be AWESOME.
For 3 - But doesn't a competent end-game Controller ALREADY need to have 6-7 artifacts? I know personally I have a 200 Rao, 200 BoP, 200 Claw, 148 Tetra, 160 Harness, 200 Soul Cloak and a fully buffed Kryptonian Soder thingy that gives a 5% power dump when I drink it to the party.
Evidently - I will ALSO need a 200 Cog.
That is EIGHT Arts, right there. Just to stay relevant as a versatile End Game Controller.
Additionally - my reasoning for buffing the Rao amulet was to bring ATTENTION to the fact that Might doesn't always make right in a raid but we've become accustomed to the norm of 4-5 Dps in a raid. Whether or not the Devs ever buffed it (or any other Controller Arts) is irrelevant to my concerns unfortunately.
To ME - the Rao is perhaps the most important Controller art out there but there are OTHERS that we as Controllers should have in our artifact slots that are NOT conducive to "Buffing DPS". As a BALANCING act I don't see ANY OTHER artifact out there that the Devs could buff to make our Art Inventory more "Stable".
Finally - for Number 3 - My typical loadout nowadays for my Controller is my Claw, my Rao and my BoP. My BoP will SOON be replaced by a 200 Tetra or a 200 Cog. I can honestly see a scenario where a group of 4-5 DPS will need me to run my Claw, Tetra AND Cog - for DPS that use MIGHT as well as PREC for DPS.
Now tell me what PURE Controller Arts are left in my inventory after such a change? The Claw is an unofficial "Combat Controller" artifact. This is why I presented my "4-slots for Controller Artifacts" slot.
To close out - you mentioned "Cheap Mechanics" lol. No disrespect to YOU, DS, but there was already a thread about our latest Elite Duo having such "Cheap Mechanics".
Having bosses where a Controller would have to CONTINUALLY pay attention to debuffing has only RECENTLY been implemented - with DEVASTATOR in the alert and with BRIMSTONE in the BoP raid.
Other bosses simply don't need a higher amount of Controller Debuffing attention in this game as of yet.
Here's the POINT I want to drive home -
This FUN game we all play used to NOT have Controllers "BUFFING" damage for DPS's. This is a part of the source of The Dark4's reasoning behind starting this thread even if was not explicitly stated.
Why / how / where / when - did Controllers get to this point?
Why is it accepted?
I know that CHANGE is a part of life - even in Video Gaming. But why have CONTROLLERS had to change SO MUCH in this game - subtly over the years - while no other role has had to change so much?
Granted - all that we're asking to give up is ARTIFACT slots.....but again no other role is being asked to give up 1-2 slots just to BUFF another role.
There is no “if one troll dies a dps can switch until the troll is revived”. Armories have increased timers when in combat. So if the troll dies the dps will be stuck in troll until they wipe it until the red timer goes away. So if drain mechanics became then it would in fact be a raid killer. If the troll were to wipe and the healer got drained even for a few seconds while the troll was revived than that right there would be a wipe. Let’s just say that the group didn’t wipe, the troll role does not have many avenues to restore group power bars that were all drained. Think of TSDe. If everything stood out of the circles for a few seconds than the troll would have to use their sc to restore power or a supply drop within the circle which people would be gathered for anyways. Having to do this whenever you just die and have to get picked up is a cheap mechanic. And DWF being the best raid is again your opinion.
I don’t think dominance affected length/strength of stuns/cc thou someone else would have to confirm this. I do remember different forms of CC were normalized across powers thou. But regardless, speccing to dom may be what you want to have to do but it is your opinion. Others may not want to be forced to spec into an additional stats.
And for arts. You only “HAVE” to have 3 arts. Claw, tetra, and cog. At most youd also want rao. That’s 4. No one is saying you have to have any other arts. You choosing to have the bop, harness, and soul cloak add personal choices and not demands for all endgame groups.
As for the cheap mechanics and debuffs. Debuffs are already a must do. If a troll is not debuffing than they are doing a bad job as a troll. In elite content you need to use damage debuffs and defense debuffs. There have been countless bosses and mechanics throughout the game that demanded the healing debuffs. These have been staple in trolling since the start of the game. Having mechanics that if these debuffs are not up the team gets punished is an extremely cheap mechanic. Again what is the troll dies and has to get picked up. Will the boss start one shotting memebers because they have. Green crosshair? What if it’s at the end of the boss and half the group dies and then the troll dies. Will the rest of the group be unable to finish because the boss has a green shield and now the group can’t hurt them even though it only has 1% health? These are cheap mechanics. Debuffs are highly impactful. This goes for raids and alerts. Making it so they are much haves means you introduced mechanics that just simulate difficulty.
The troll role had to change for a very simple reason. It’s a new role not introduced to any other game. It’s a left over role made up of random effects typically present in other roles for other games.
In other game everyone has power regen so it’s up to the individual to manage their power.
In other games you have damage classes that deal less damage but have buffs and debuffs built into their kits.
In other games you have CC built into kits for other roles or even damage classes
These were all stripped from other classes (except cc from tanks) and given to the new role which was names controllers.
When the role was first present trolls didn’t do much of controlling since they were asked to be power batteries. For the history of the game many trolls begged to be more than just walking batteries. And the trolls were given what was asked for. Now they have other styles that can play.
You mentioned in a previous thread that you never asked for this and you preferred being a power troll. But you are in the minority since most trolls hated being walking batteries. The troll role had to go through so many changes because it was in a weird state of being a role based around stripped tasks given to this role.
Honestly wish it never changed. I hated the giving power argument. I always looked at it as you had 2 bars to maintain. A healer maintains health and a troll maintains power. They were equally important. On top of that Trolls did primarily most of the pick ups, stunned the sea of adds that came out which is primarily how tanks get killed and threw some debuff. For a majority of this games life it was an enjoyable role. Since they changed it, I do find that I am on my dpses more. I still have zero issue why people complained about being a battery, it was extremely similar to healing, yet I dont hear heals complain that all they do is give health.
Come on you know ive been saying trolls do more then give power.....ive been saying that the other things trolls have to do are not very difficult to do.....my OP literally says they should buff/debuff mainly as their main role and remove giving out power and make it a simple auto power regen.
I believe thats were the skill gap and knowing the raid mechs is key.....for example if i am in COUe and i saw a ball come towards someone, i will know hey im free to art swap now without having to worry about it....Same with TSWe, If I know hey cracks are spawning by just listening to Perpetua throughout the fight , I will know not to swap unless i see clearly an orb has been dropped and vice versa. Art swapping I think is not something that should not be forced on people, but for the people who do it and do it effectively, it takes skill and a raid knowledge imo and takes a lot of timing. I also hate doing it but I understand why you have to do it and why so many people utilize doing it.
Not gonna lie, It is a bunch of arts you have to get to 200 for a controller its actually crazy If you want to sweat bufftroll
Someone made a nice idea that trolls should be able to CC a Boss to prevent a group wipe or a group member from getting one shot ON A SKULL to replace lunge mechanics that we have done for Lois/Superman/Proma/Kerbak and a bunch of other bosses....Just thought i would throw that out there and would actually make trolls have a key role....If they implemeneted this in alerts imagine how many alerts would now have mandatory trolls....I thought it would actually be nice.
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