chasing scoreboard more detrimental?

As a tool to measure one's own effectiveness, what you need is a Combat log, and a personal tool that allows the individual player to parse their OWN numbers - but specifically *not* the numbers of the other people (or you recreate the above nastiness and poor gameplay). The more dynamic the tool is, the more it is useful to your personal improvement. Meaning: it should give you a breakdown with specific numbers separated according to combos and powers - which use how much power/time, which give you the most damage/time etc... If a player takes a tool like that and sits down with the training dummy and spends a while trying out different builds and different rotations, they can seriously improve their personal best, narrowing down which skills and combos in practice are most effective, and which ones they've been using that aren't so effective.

BUT, as soon as you have people watching each other's numbers, you will naturally foster people treating each other by the numbers, in a cold and cruel attitude. You will directly make people be less friendly with each other, and less cooperative, and more coarse and impersonal. The community will be less cohesive, and more prone to arrogance, elitism, exclusionary attitudes, and lots of base, immature trolling and general nastiness > ... because the other players are no longer your teammates, who you support, and have the back of, and treat as your friends... They are only numbers ahead of you to try to catch up with so you don't get /Kicked, or who are falling behind and so you /Kick them.

And... when people chase numbers, the overall result is NOT better skill. It makes people play worse, because nobody slows down to make smart or helpful choices strategically when it will mean falling behind on the Scorecard and getting thrown out. It's just not going to happen.

A friendly competition would be great if all powers were equal.

Scorecard is needed for dps so we can know where we stand, especially when devs make changes to powers, weapons, or whatever. I won't lie though, there is a certain satisfaction that comes with being 1st on the scoreboard, but most aren't scoreboard chasing at the expense of the team. People exaggerate.

I disagree w/ your comment

Now this is something I would really like COMBAT LOG yes.

Flip side - I"M sure the allot of posting of numbers will go on as people like to brag and compare.

Combat logs? They already exist. They're worthless. In fact, you suggested the idea and they're right under your nose! They are useless for observing your own progress.

oh, and to make matters worse, combat log entries only have the damage aspects recorded. Its "Damage Per Second" for a reason. Time isnt recorded on the combat log.

Time is somewhat not recorded on the scorecard either in terms of actual DPS, but because DPS usually all started the instance at the same time, you can compare damage then because time is a constant factor between all of them.

Besides, without other people to compare to, how do you know you're doing well? Are you bring carried? Are you doing the carrying? Ill be brutally honest, if the game went and removed all of this info just so joe blow can enter my group and DPS worse than the healers, but can do it in secrecy....all because some players feel that a small group of individuals ruined their gaming experience by laughing at their own superiority, you need to wake the **** up and grow some thick skin.

Getting rid of the scoreboard is the worst idea I've ever heard. It's how we (dps) know were doing our job and holding our weight. If the guy on the scoreboard is crushing me then maybe I'm doing something wrong or I need to tweek my loadout or rotations, maybe someone needs help, how will you know... If you take away the scoreboard all of a sudden everyone is running into raids as dps and claiming to be beasts lol. I left this game to play FFXIV and came back because of the scoreboard. Games like FFIV have no scoreboard and you have no idea if your doing your job well.

Except for the fact that the support roles do only a fraction of the damage out. I am a healer and as such my damage out will be a lot lower than a dps as a way to compensate for that I could wear DPS gear but that would have a penalization on my restoration which means that my healing out won't be up to the standards it should be and even decked out with full DPS gear My damage out will be less than yours so in fact I am put near the bottom of the list unless I am with some newer players that don't have their stats up to my level. So then If the ones being kicked for having their names low on the totem pole (scorecard) then how exactly is that fair to me and all the other support roles? I did an experiment with my earth Tank (Same character, Same moves in the load out, Same gear, Same number of Skill points allotted to the same weapons and same stats) I ran the same instance twice using the exact same moves and the exact same weapon in the exact same places. I had enabled role specific placement only for the tank role as to truly make a working experiment you can only change one variable i.e. my role so I needed the same team formation one DPS to compare my score against, one healer and one controller. In DPS the name on the scorecard was first meanwhile in Tank I was in second only followed by the controller who kept our power up and healer who kept our health up while the dps and I were plowing through the enemies, as tank I rolled aggro especially against the bosses drawing all their fire at me. and yet I was still beat out in damage out. As you switch to a supporting roll your overall damage output is reduced to match what is increased to correctly run what is needed for that roll to function. Hell even just switching rolls and checking stats you will see that difference. As a tank my dom and defense stats are increased but precision and might are decreased. while the reverse is true for my DPS stats. So the scorecard is in fact a failure at correctly tallying all roles because comparing the overall damage out between a tank and DPS makes as much sense as comparing healing out between a controller and healer or power out between a troll and healer. Hell I accept that I am not even the best. During a batcave inner sanctum raid run I was doing less healing then the other healer (not that I wasn't trying and wasn't pulling my own weight, but his stats were far better than mine yet he got kicked because they saw two healers and saw that his damage out was lower than mine and I was pissed because they kicked someone who was doing amazing just because he was just under me in the totem pole. so they could burn through the zeta drone ignoring the fact that the omac repair units will keep healing it as long as they let them.

I didn't suggest it...

And, this was an enhanced Combat Log that someone else brought up, not me.

Yes, but when does the "compare" become a "contest"?
As effectiveness and efficiency give-way to sloppy and haphazard game play - all because someone is trying to be first!

As far as being Carried is concerned - There will be people who will be carried in this game - till the end of time. There is nothing that will prevent this condition currently in the game(s) open platform parameters, from happening. Call it an occupational hazard, if you will but, the situation is there never the less and kicking is (after-thought) at best.

Until a time / (Unless), individual(s) can be put through some type of cert-training, of "Role and Field Mechanics" to better separate the "Wheat from the Chaff" - then you will at least have a better pool of candidates, to draw on.

Who isn't looking for a "Smooth Instance Run" that's the ultimate goal here or, it should be. However, If anybody is looking to ruin someone's gaming experience by "laughing at their own superiority" it certainly, not me!

The scoreboard is a double edged sword. Its great for seeing who is being effective, but is easily misread and misused.

removing the board wont solve the problem. it'll just create a diff one. I troll with someone who popped vit colas and snuck in pot numerous times bcuz the pot was the same at that point. I was main troll and he was basically behind me by a mere 50k-100k. how I suddenly couldn't dbl this guy,who was kicked out of our raids before for being a poor troll,is beyond me. I am no post nerf baby. I do my job too maximize my teams output,but this score told me something was wrong. not to mention he's always out of power,spamming charge,while ppl sit at full. that score looked like we took turns throwing pot. if i died in one tunnel and got locked out,thay should be the correct score,but I was up the whole run. Even if I only threw pot and no recharge I should've easily led him by 100k.

troll was def doing something wrong,but this also stems from carrying ppl. they feel inept so those guys chip at the scoreboard in any way possible just to seem less scrubby.

The scoreboard is utilized in a number of ways.

to remove it would cause all sorts of chaos. In essence, removing the scorecard would probably end up making the community 100% gear based. Before you even counter this with saying it already is, think about it.

If I had no way at all of seeing any kind of performance, the next thing would be all about what I can see - gear. It would be to the point that each group would literally phase and go to one area together outside of the instance for an inspection before every raid.

think it hasnt been that way before? Ask around. If you really believe the scoreboard is the culprit, then you are sadly mistaken.

No one will ever eliminate competition out of this game. The only way for competition to cease is to pull the plug on the game. The "I need to be first" mentality will never go away. To even think removing information that AT LEAST compares players on performance and thinking it would not result in something far less inaccurate taking its place is just appalling.

The problem is that this friendly competition leads to suboptimal play with respect to picking people up, survivability, power consumption, etc.

There is an issue with not being able to see numbers either, in that the raid may be failing and it could be due to only one of the dps being able to do their job. If for example you are in a three dps raid and the first has 1,000,000 damage out to the others 250,000 out, there is an issue that needs to be addressed.
How people address it can be an issue. You can attempt to teach, replace or whatever, but the fact is those two people are dragging down six others. However much you may or may not like it, the raid either has to be disbanded or corrected. People can easily misread it and be to harsh on it. For example, if one dps is at 1,000,000 another at 900,000 and 800,000, there isn't an issue but some see it as one.
Also, if someone has many more deaths than others, they need to adjust. Having private scoreboards means most would hide if they are at a disadvantage, or not even know, as they have no one elses to compare it too. Imagine that, if you never see what damage people are putting out you never know how you are performing anyway. Same for power usage. Having a private scoreboard is the same as not having one at all, you lose any of the benefits it provides. The current one could be set up better though.

Scoreboards hurt and help. I was puggin gates as a solo healer and did 452,000 while the dps below me did 345,000. Nobody died and it was a smooth run. Keep in mind I am a celestial healer with 4407 resto and 650 precision with all of the healing inates plus all dps critical attack innates. At the end the other dps mock and make fun because he got beat by a healer, and he then says I wasnt doing my job and focusing on damage. Too many dps are focused on the damage board rather than having fun. I simply told the dps learn to use your role and stop sucking up all of the power. I dont like scoreboard chasers. I only look at the scoreboard when something goes wrong.

Sadly as with all thing when you get the good you always get the bad too.

The good, the scoreboard give you a chance to see how you preformed (even if you could swear you did way more than it says you did).

The bad, the scoreboard is used as a measuring stick (of a sort) to put down those who don't follow a curtain standard and a way for some people to think they are better than others.

Only dps chase the scorecard. Other roles have no reason to. You occasionally come across a healer that wants to "out heal" the other guy, but its rare. Dps are the ones that feel the need to "measure" themselves against others.

The most important stats on the scorecard are power in, healing in, damage in, number of deaths.

You also need to subtract the number of deaths from that as well. The scorecard is the reason why dps run ahead of the group. The reality is, the scorecard should be removed from pve OR make it only viewable to the individual player. There is no reason why players need to see each others "scores".

DPS who use the argument that they need the scorecard to compare how they did to the other dps to improve themselves is BS. Playstyles, weapons, and powers are different, so there is no real comparison. They simply want to claim "I'm the greatest" and if things aren't going well they are the first ones to start a vote to kick another dps.

Removing the scorecard or only making the individual players scores available to him/her would be the best thing the devs could do for this game.

Its not just about if the trolls can handle it. That is the typical dps mindset. What is most important is that the healer has power to keep the group alive, as well as the trolls keeping the tank with power or the group dies. Dps have a weapon, and they need to learn how to use it. If the 3 dps are always sucking in all the power, the group is in trouble.