I love DCUO so can you remove the stat clamp already?

If you could just stop, read thoroughly, and comprehend what it is you're replying to... that would be great. I'm going to use caps now, hopefully so the point will get through to you in some fashion... this is not yelling, even though the frustration is there.

Anyway...

I told you it was MY PERSONAL VALUE for a reason. As in what those rewards mean to ME, not what they're worth to literally everyone at actual value. If I don't find it WORTH MY TIME OR INVESTMENT, THEN IT'S NOT WORTH IT TO ME. If I'm getting the EXACT SAME REWARDS OR BETTER in EG content for LESS EFFORT/TIME, then it's not worth it to me. Is that hard to understand, or should I give up now? Please tell me someone else is following...

As for old content, I'm passed it. It's old, outdated, overplayed. I've moved through the tiers. It's been run through the dirt and no longer enjoyable to do it over in this fashion. The "rewards" or widened "relevancy" window does not matter to me. I do not care if marks were kept out of EG or put back in, doesn't matter either way.

Difficulty is not, and has never been, part of my opinion on the clamp. It never was, I never even bring it up unless I'm CORRECTING YOU for even mentioning it. You are joining the two, and then projecting it on me. It's not hard, it's time consuming. End of discussion. If you can't comprehend this, that's not my problem. Maybe invest in a thesaurus.

No it isn't infinitely better, clearly I'm not the only one who feels this way. I would take the old system back in a heartbeat, without hesitation. You have no idea what I was doing previously, so no need to lie to try and take a guess at where this attitude/opinion came from. I ran through old content constantly with close friends, mainly walk-ins or grouped up. It was casual, they got something for their characters (mainly alts) and we all had fun with it in a laid back setting until we got up to current end game content at the time. Majority of the time, I got nothing out of it besides a few marks or style/base items and was perfectly content with it. It was quick, fun, and enjoyable smashing through old stuff with close friends.

I also don't know how many times I have to tell you this, but I do not give a single **** about feats in this game... they could hand out 50 feat points daily for simply logging in and that would not impact my opinion over the clamp. I have enough to get by, and I will never chase them. It just is not fun for me.

I'm here for one thing, to play a superhero/villain. I'm here to have a stupid powerful character and emulate characters like Superman. I want the gameplay to reflect the source material. I do not want WoW with a DC skin overlay. I came into this game because it was different and had more action elements, and there was a time where you could feel that sense of overwhelming power. That's it.

I have 714 SP homie. I'm js. I used to spend hours playing dcuo. That's before most of my friends left and the game became a time sink. It was once fun but thats been replaced with kill open world boss 1000 times and 7 different versions of the same raid

It was sarcasm. Smh

It's funny that Proxy is coming across as Elitist. Lmao. Proxy. That's like the homeless man giving you stock market tips or the McDonalds burger flipper telling you how to cook

Yes and No, I will take league mates and friends for sure, because that's all part of networking and building relationships, why wouldn't you, I think it's its unfair to imply that's a bad thing, if that is what you're implying. I've said numerous times in this thread and others, build networks, join leagues form friendships, they're important.

I will however, also take random people you refer to as "fillers" but I don't extensively vet them, I just expect them to do their role, but am also accepting of mistakes I'm not just going to kick someone unless it becomes painfully obvious that they're the problem and even then you'd talk to them about it first, contrary to what you may feel, through implication, I'm not some exclusive gatekeeper type that sits there in LFG demanding you have a rank 200 Eye of Gemini, although sometimes typically with EEG I might prefer you have DLC augments because of the frequently crucial benefits they provide.

This is the part I feel you've twisted just a little what you deem "cheese" is actually just strategy and using items in your possession to their potential, you're basically suggesting I shouldn't place stats in certain places that provide benefit or use certain artifacts that provide a tangible benefit because you think you've set the rules on what's "cheese" and what isn't, that's not how any game operates and it's frequently what a player does when they don't want to have to do something but begrudge others for doing so, because it attempts to belittle or shame the other player in to adapting their behavior to mirror your own even if it results in less success.

You've also twisted the narrative to imply that I'm after easy feats, I'm just prepared to effectively "pay for them" by leveling artifacts, that's not really true, I'm not really after easy feats at all, I'm just playing the game within the confines of what the developers have put in front of us, as dictated by the clamp, my desire is effectively neutral. I never set out to "make feats harder or easier" I simply realized that it would be a byproduct of introducing a clamp that was needed for a raft of reasons so the feats becoming "harder" was simply an acceptable outcome.

The question as stated in earlier posts was never about should feats be "easy" but rather "how easy should feats become through progress", that's why it was most important not that feats become harder but rather how easy or hard should they ever be.

That was always, going to be the biggest sticking point with any introduction of a clamping system, because any successful clamping system was always going to be mandatory and its introduction has proven that through its fruition. The developers clearly don't want to split queues and population communities between their desire to run clamped or unclamped.

Feats clearly remain the sticking point in this entire thing, it stems from two factors really either a complete apathy towards gearing up what they know will make their life "easier" which is probably really what you mean when I'm after "easier" feats, and a complete lack of skill prohibiting them from successfully completing the feat in way other than just ridiculously overpowering it, half the time they've probably not even tried the feats on a realistic level under the current system either, they've certainly not tested things for true outliers, a few of us have already pointed out a few of course being the Justice League Dark "Stake Well Done" feat and the Clock Tower Raid last boss.

The difference of course between what I've described above and someone like "The Con" is that they don't want there to be balance, they just want a removal of the clamp so they can re-engage in "easy mode" and when I say he wants "easier feats" or wants "easy feats" that is what is meant by it. He is unprepared to accept where the bar currently sits and for either of those two reasons I've described "apathy or lack of skill" needs the system to be changed to re-enable his ability to reacquire old feats.

None of these people care about the loot, they only care about the feats, if they were provided with an optional system they'd go in to the unclamped environment obtain their feats then be straight back in to the most efficient clamped instances providing reward and the complaints about "things taking too long" will quietly drop away. These people want to have their cake and eat it also. so although I appreciate providing "options" seems good on the surface and I think you mean well by recommending it, I'm not sure the use of it would be quite as virtuous as you think nor do I think many of the complaints being used to justify its such introduction are genuine.

Part of your problem then clearly, is that you find "objectively factual valuable progress" to be personally worthless. Think about that.

If you put an egg in a pot with boiling water it'll be hard boiled in 8 minutes, the same amount of time it takes to complete 2 FOS3's

No...

I find slowing down progress to this degree to be worthless.

I don't see a point in progressing and actively participating in "the grind" if this is the answer every time we become "too powerful".

I still don't think you fully understand why I find the rewards in EEG to be worthless though, and I'm not going to explain it again... just reread and get back to me at a later date. No hurry.

It's the answer every game has implemented when people become "too powerful" honestly I'm probably more shocked this game took as long as it did.

If you want to see how bad a stat clamp implementation can be or how punitive it really can feel you should have been playing SWTOR, if you're actually looking for a game that "eliminates progress".

That was why I included that bit at the end of the other post... about the game being different... and more fun/less restrictive... and not like all the other standard MMO's. I'm sure someone else can jump in to correct you there, as far as "every" game goes, because I've seen a few examples of games that have succeeded with an optional clamp being posted on here. Not sure why you're so adamantly against options either, but that's all I've ever asked for regarding this topic.

And that sounds slightly less fun than what we've been forced into... no thanks. I'm already having a hard enough time finding any enjoyment in DCUO. This is bad enough.

I think the one thing that we can probably agree upon is that any optional system implemented is almost certainly going to have restrictions, other games that allow such a system do so as well, it really does just leave one question, if we put to one side whether the option does or doesnt cause division in queue streams and that's.

What should those restrictions actually be, i think some people are a little more genuine in their views and are a bit more honest about it and for what it's worth I do find you a bit more constructive than some others in here, well really only the one Haha

i apologise.. seriously.. i read it wrong and it was late.. i get it now

I agree with the restrictions to some extent, but there could be different types of restrictions that aren't necessarily tied to rewards. I don't see any real reason to not let it have the same exact limits as pre-clamp (loot locks and all, it's only fair considering we had it for so long). I obviously am not expecting full rewards, and I have yet to see anyone with this expectation.

That said:

Other restrictions could be tier progress based checkpoints. Where you would either need a character that's at EG CR on your account, or need to be a few tiers beyond previous content, to unlock the unclamped version. This would likely still require a majority of the playerbase who needs this to participate in clamped content.

As far as how to implement:
Could be a toggle option like I've suggested in another thread, where you would have to select it similar to the cross-faction grouping or instance in progress options. Maybe there could be different settings, allowing players to choose how far up the proverbial "ladder" they're willing to let players into their instance. Rewards could be based on a scale this way, the more powerful the character you let in, the less rewards you gain (less marks/fewer options for loot table drops?).

I try to remain as genuine/honest as possible, I'm glad that gets through in my posts at least. Discussions can get heated at times, but that could boil down to different perspectives or tones that are hard to convey over text.

Ultimately, I just want to go back to enjoying this game. I'm not opposed to change, and I'm not out to try and force anyone to play one way or the other. I have tried multiple times to find enjoyment out of this, but it just isn't happening. The negative runs completely outweigh any positive runs I've had during clamped content.

I call it 'cheese' because we all know that there are certain metas that make things MORE trivial than if you didn't use them. I didn't say there is anything inherently bad about it...just saying it's done because it makes things easier and/or faster, which is the goal in the end...by the way, it's the goal of people wanting unclamped too....just at a different degree. You can't possibly tell me that you 'enjoy' the experience of tac swapping mods, if it didn't give you an advantage, right? I know when I was playing superhero growing up, I often went into my pockets every 2 seconds to pull out 2 different items, then quickly put them back....it's like a dream come true.

No, I said you try to make them as easy as you can within the confines of what is allowed/capable. No worries....again, I said, that's just smart....but it isn't upping the challenge any, now is it? And yeah, you are asking that things be made 'harder', harder than they were unclamped at least....otherwise why would you propose that an unclamped run is ok as long as there are no feats or rewards? The idea should be abhorrent to you regardless of if there are feats or rewards, if you really believed what you say about the impact.

There is a time factor that I think plays a bigger part than you want to let on, but yes...that is partially because the feats are some degree harder now...this is true. But time also applies to building the group, then 2, 3 or more tries to get the feat, especially for ones that are 1 and done fails. Again, MOST feats in EEG are not hard (not counting Elite runs), especially if you have a built group, so 'easy' or 'crazy easy'....to me...not much of a difference really...not nearly as much as you make it out to be.

And yes....I'd say 'feats' is at the crux of both sides. For the most part, it's what would be a benefit of unclamped, and for the most part, it's what people on the other side object to (people getting 'easy' feats). All the rest is smoke and mirrors.

I'd say the unclamped side cares much less about the loot than the clamped side, but yeah, likely once the feats were mined for many, they'd either run less completely or run their few omni's exclusively....however, for the people that truly dislike the clamp, I think that's the case already.

And I still say we should have loot locks if anyone REALLY wants the system to work as it should. Make spams less attractive and you'd get more takers for other content than the <6 min runs. But I'd guess many who WANT the system, will object to that idea.

BTW....I've already proposed that any optional system would have basically an 'event' tier where some feats could be done in unclamped....and some can't. We have this already for many feats, except the 'event' is a limited time. Stomp on flowers in RWR....sure, unclamped. Kill rats in FVR...sure, unclamped. Drop the bosses within 10 seconds of each other? Nah, reg only....the difference is spam or random vs skill based feats. That's where I'd draw a line, and it would mean that you couldn't go in and clear all your feats in unclamped....just as you can't go clear them all in Event if the DLC is current. Many already do this as it cuts down on runtime as events are 99% of the time...faster. And as I said above, I think we all like to get things done faster....don't we?

The source marks are not really a big deal. The clamp hurts people going back to get feats. Theres not a single soul in this thread that got every feat when that dlc was the current dlc. Now let's be honest. Even clamped most of the old instances are not difficult for the veteran players. That's not who I am fighting for. It's the new player who decides they want to be more than a casual. On a 12 year old game with a dwindling player base and whats our answer? "Get good". No one is going to stick around if they have to take 2 years to catch up. And that's if they play for like 6 hours a day. We need to find ways to get new players to stick around not drain them for 20 dollars in stabs and watch them quit after a month or two. Got to turn that one time purchase into a continual source of revenue and thats only possible by making the game more accessible to new players. Getting then to endgame quick but giving them the tools to at least be able to perform one rotation. ****, there's no way a new player goes to YouTube and watches a video from whirling dervish man and will be able to sustain that kind of rotation.

Most of the raids feats are easily obtained with the clamp. People just can´t expect to get everything hand out, the game is already so easy. Besides people dont need 700+ SP to be good at the game.

Trouble with trying to define something as cheese is that what you consider cheese is highly subjective and it is again used to shame others in to playing a particular piece of content a way you deem appropriate, Elitists generally tend to use the term cheese when people they see as being beneath them engage in a strategy that they see as unacceptable a typical example of such would go all the way back to "Paradox" when people would block bosses behind pillars to gain control.

As for the "tac swapping" play style I really don't care one way or the other. I don't actually care if people engage in that behavior despite having shown sympathy that content not be balanced around the premise of "Sweaty swapping" which it isn't. is loose tac swapping going to provide you with a distinct advantage also, of course and anyone can do it to that extent.

There is a distinct difference between utilizing what has been given in the game to overcome an obstacle versus pining after the creation of a system that enables one not to have to bother.

Also no I didn't ask for harder content, the reason I support the clamp actually has nothing to do with making 'feats' harder (or even content itself specifically harder) it was about fixing the numerous other issues running rampantly wild as a result of the un clamped nature of the game. the byproduct of that having to happen was inevitably going to be harder feats, which begged the question "where is the acceptable balance point" how easy can we make the feat or for that matter the content before it fundamentally breaks, which is the aspect I have the most significant problem with.

Despite everyone having engaged in such negative behavior in the past as well we should all have a problem with trivializing the content enabling us to drag screeds of adds along with us as we melt everything in the instance and most peoples involvement in the instance is rendered irrelevant, everyone should have an opportunity to engage in any instance, otherwise, why are they even playing it anymore? if you could even argue that's even still playing at that point. This was a commonly expressed complaint prior to the clamps introduction.

I acknowledge there's a time factor in everything, however, no I don't care about it, an instance takes however long an instance takes, a feat takes however long it takes, when this game was in its infancy people would always form groups for content and feats, the uncontrolled progression lead people to have unrealistic expectations on how much they should over power something and how much they should trivialize the feats when they chose to return to them and that an still happen, just not to the extent that the game breaks as a result.

See, this is the element where we fundamentally disagree, it isn't smoke and mirrors, I again don't actually care if people get 'easy feats' I care about the game breaking as a result of that desire and ruining the content more widely in terms its engagement. It may be useful for you to go in and squash content for your feat but it isn't useful for anyone else when the content breaks as a result or people are left in a trail of your waste.

Edit - and for the record I'll add here the reason I kick back at people about feats is because they're particularly disingenuous about why they want the clamp removed in the first place and pretend "easier feats" isn't their primary driving motivation I really just want them to be honest about it.

Ultimately the loot locks were removed to help create appeal to the fact content would take longer, the clamp by virtue of its existence dictates the time it takes to farm source marks in the same way a loot lock would do, the way you make spams less attractive in any case is rewarding them less and rewarding the longer instances more so that the amount of time it takes to gain even one source mark is roughly the same irrespective of what someone runs.

It's a better optional system than some, but how does any of this ultimately address the issue of high level players ruining content for low level players of which generated numerous complaints pre clamp, or do we just not care about that? Also how does it prevent content from breaking and glitching out?

What do you say to all those new players who frequently complained about "high cr players" ruining their experience leaving them to feel like a spectator in the instance? Or locked out of loot because the vets ran ahead and one shot the boss before anyone can keep up.

Is it only the new players wanting a feat carry that you care about rather than overall balance?

Perhaps its time to start discussing selling feats on the marketplace after a certain point and leaving the clamped environment alone, if someone no longer wants to stay casual they could always then take up the option of spending cash, or do you object to a new player being able to buy the precious elite feats after a certain point rather than "earning them"?

Feats should never been sold in the MP. Capsule feats are enough p2w already. I don't care whether the players are old or new players. How a player achieves a feat from 5 DLC's prior means nothing to me. If I earned it when it was relevant than I got those bragging rights. All I want is for players to be able to obtain those feats. It was always like this before and there wasn't anything wrong with a rookie or a returning vet going into an instance 4 years old and smashing it for the feat. Who really cares? How does that effect your playtime? It doesn't. I used to be just like you, the only difference is I was a superstar. There are still videos out there of my runs with Creativity or Turbulence or Servers Worst or Plats, where we knocked out the hardest feats of the times. Do you got a Gold SM 1 chest? If anyone has the right to act like this, it is me. But that's not good for the long term future of this game. Personally I wouldn't care if the devs gave away every single PVP feat. Every single LPVE feat. I took all that time to grind those feats but IDC if they give them all to new players. Putting people on a level playing field is healthy for the game. Those players are not going to take my spot in an elite run. I'm confident that I will always get my runs in. When this game shuts down, I know it wont be because i made it difficult for new players.

You didn't answer my question at all, instead you just went on an a tirade about how good you are, I don't care how good you are lol.

The question asked was what do you do about all the complaints from the very same players you claim to be advocating for who want exactly the opposite thing you claim they want.

The complaints over the years were numerous where new players were complaining about high CR players ruining their content by simply squashing the content and leaving them feeling like a spectator, what do you say to those people? Just get over it I guess, right, be happy you're oh so graciously getting them a feat yeah?

Nevermind all the glitched bosses too or the people being locked out of loot, because that happened before and it'll happen again.

You say you're fighting for the little guy, but really you're only fighting for the little guy fitting the narrative of what you want, while you cast aside years of complaints, the clamp is about finding a balance for all players of this game, not just some.

Also if you don't care how difficult it is for new players, why do you so oppose just selling them the feats?