Counter Immunity Removal

Did you miss the part where mepps stated that immunity is the heart of the problem?

Insisting that it not go away is insisting that we keep the heart of the problem. All you're doing on test is validating your own rants and raves through controlled environments which are not representative of combat as a whole.

You know why AOE Block Breaks don't work?

Because block doesn't damage you by itself. It is a completely reaction-based aspect of the counter system. The only damage you get from blocking is from the counter.

With AOE Ranged attacks, you're doing damage to the players regardless of the counter.

The sad thing here is that there are players out there that could provide 10x stronger reasoning why this change is not a good idea. These players are stronger than your for many reasons:
- They have much, much, much, MUCH more experience than you
- They have countless amounts of data, number crunches, stats, and video that you can't provide
- They are actual competitive players, not casuals
And my personal favorite!
- They actually know what they are talking about!

I've said it a billion times and I'll say it again.

The Devs NEED to be listening to players like Clutchmeister/Enquirer/Shaw, and many others that I could list. I understand that you're feelings hurt SP because these people talk down to you sometimes, but you need to be using your voice to support their ideas using your voice. Get other members of the community council on board. Its outrageous that the players that were providing the most and highest quality feedback are silenced simply because certain players who don't actually know what they're doing won't step down.

Ummm... so, the video he posted was in no way related to a rant/rave as you put it. Quite simply, what he has shown us is invaluable in that the current implementation on test is completely and utterly bonkers.

I agree that that example is an issue that needs to be looked into. Shortening the vulnerability of Counter Vulnerability Windows is something that should be looked at and something that has been an issue for some time now since they dumbed them down. I remember when you had to be fast, intuitive and nimble in your combos to be able to catch somebody blocking and that was before they slowed the block animation.

The disconnect here is that immunity IS NOT the heart of the problem. Mepps himself even acknowledged that he knew it probably wasn't.

The thing is there's no valid reasoning provided as of yet why they would be the heart of the problem, nor do most of the posters disagreeing with this change see it as the heart of the problem. And with all due respect to the dev team, I'm far for having blind faith in their knowledge about their own game, because it's been proven to be lacking on several ocasions.

So now it's controlled environments? And what will it be after we get some people and do some scrimms? I'm not on an agenda to oppose change for the sake of oposing change. I do not wish to see a stupid halfassed change in a vacuum to ruin an aspect of the game I enyoy, and all I'm doing is stating as to why I believe this to be a stupid change, both based on my feelings about it and based on tests performed with it. I like this game, been playing it for a loooong time, I'd hate to see it ruined any more then it already is.

The funny thing is that for the most part this isn't an issue on live. And imagine in scenario that had more people surrounding. It doesn't matter short that vulnerability window is, you're still very likely to get hit by an AoE interupt. That's the whole point of blue immunities in the first place. To actually reward you for countering someone.

So, I'm going to stop arguing with you because you seem to be misinterpreting/misrepresenting/equivocating facts in order to justify some reality that doesn't actually exist.

1. You used 23 million toons to represent a comparison to the 20k toons with CR 115+, which, again, is like a league boasting 500 members when only about 10 characters log in and some of those are alts.

2. You took my analogy about money and used it literally, LOL.

3. You took "2-5 2-5 elite/heroic raids" and compared it to "15-20 easy other missions/alerts/raids" as if that's a representation of actual amount of content, which it is not, i.e. a single elite/heroic raid can provide 4-hr a day/5-day a week content, and the 15-20 other easy missions are given equal or less effort. Therefore, the 2-5 elite heroic raids actually provide MORE content than the 15-20 easy ones.

4. I brought up the idea of alts on an account when you hadn't and you responded with, "The idea of some players having 2 toons among those is completely non-existent in your post while you use the same approach to get the opposing numbers down."

5. You think 25k players is actually low enough to be funny, which is in itself funny.
http://steamcharts.com/app/24200
Let's say that only 5% of players use Steam, just to give you the benefit of the doubt of a minority which I think is actually somewhere a lot higher - let's round up the 1194 24-hr peak to 1,200, multiply it by 20 to account for the 5%, and you get 24k total players! Good try, though.

6. You took my evidence for out-gearing content being a static factor in the equation of every game, regardless of being an MMO, and you took that for evidence. You must not know what "static" means in this scenario.

7. You told me to "learn from Hobbes" and "fight for my personal bias," even though Hobbes' state of nature as a state of war/human self-interest is only part of the 1st chapter, and before the 1st chapter is over he begins arguing AGAINST that mentality and spends the REST OF THE BOOK arguing against it. So it sounds like YOU need to "learn from Hobbes."

8. Dude, you quoted Smedley. Did you not READ Reformed's post before it was removed? You need a better source. This sounds like Smedley's "New Game Experience" rant all over again, and he already had to apologize for it once. Great job in providing me with evidence that DBG isn't learning from its past mistakes.

Your ambiguous pronoun reference falls flat in light of what he actually stated.

"probably" and "know" in the same sentence just doesn't work.

...

To know something with certainty that it is probable to occur is by no means a logical fallacy. No need to be pedantic in any case.

You were not fast and skilled to do so. You just guessed that it was the right timing to do such thing rather then countering on reaction.

We can disagree and leave it at that.

Unfortunately for you and I, we're in no position to certify what's conducive to the longevity of PvP and dcuo in general. I too have my reservations about past decisions but I'm still here, finding enjoyment where and when I can all because of the work the team does. I cannot in good conscience say that the development team has ever made any one decision that has been enough to turn me off of a game I've grown to like. I've taken breaks for new games and to just get away from it all just like anyone else. But, I eventually come back because they must be doing something right.

Some misinformation needs correcting...

Immunities were introduced to give newcomers to pvp, those that didn't stand a chance against a premade, a chance to survive more than a few seconds if they were ganged up on. They were brought in to CLOSE the gap somewhat, and instead they have WIDENED the gap, as those that can manipulate players into feeding them immunities are untouchable.

This change is NOT in a vacuum, it is the first of several to come, anyone reading Mepps post would know that. They are not rushing into things, which is a great plan.

we haven't belittled anyone until YOU decided to belittle your own tournament champion, ragingnature, and on top of this you're acting exceedingly condescending to us (as shown by the LMAO at the start of your last message). You insinuated that you wouldn't even listen to him unless he proved his credentials, which is the EXACT same attitude you accuse other players of having.

Then, once we've brought up facts to counter your argument you have failed to give any logical and sensical reasoning. Your own server's top players (ragingnature and ace 1 to name a couple) have even argued against you and called your own knowledge and credibility into question, have given you very accurate and detailed reasonings and you respond with quotes such as "screenblocking is the ultimate cheese" or just outright ignoring ragingnature simply as you thought he didn't have any credentials.
I can see why you believe so many people "attack" you, it's because you cannot bring any logical reasoning to the table and then continue acting as though you know the best. Either you start being constructive, or there's really not much sense discussing this further with You.

Indeed, this is, as Mepps pointed, the first of many changes. The issue people here are having is that this is a bewildering place to start with in the first place. Immunity was never touted as a major area of concern to begin with.

Do you honestly believe that 1.5 seconds of blue immunity was enough time to go through a full AM?

The reason immunity being gone is a concern is this:

Notice, you can now be countered because you countered someone, BY THAT SAME PERSON. There's literally NO reason to make yourself vulnerable anymore. It means nothing now that you can counter someone because that means that A) You have to stop what you're doing to counter them, and B) you're vulnerable for doing it. This means you're better off just trying to go through your AM/WM before your opponent, and not countering them.

In groups, interrupting a single person's AM and making yourself vulnerable means nothing because you're still taking all incoming damage from other people in the group. So, now, the AM's and WM's that you didn't interrupt just killed you. So now, WM/AM damage is MORE devastating in group matches than ever before.

You know why you're so surprised about the topics actually being discussed in this thread?

If you've ever followed these forums, you'd know every time anyone takes issues with counters or immunity, threads get locked and people get banned. Hence this bombshell and the tight lips.

My post that you quoted gives one reason they started here, there were probably more. Immunities become something they were never intended to be, they become a large gate to pvp that a lot of people just turned away from. It doesn't matter why, the fact that it put players off of stepping back into pvp is enough to say "this is an issue".