GU 43: Mental Advanced Mechanics

My current concern with the AM is the dependence on having dazed to keep up the TK Bolt's and TK Push's burst damage as well as Pyro's 3rd DoT. Since the AM requires a minimum 5 of the 6 loadout spots, adding Mass Lev to keep up dazed requires sacrificing Pyro, which seems to compensate for a lack of a shortcut like Gadgets, or give up Mass Terror which means halving the big burst damage.

In order remain competitive with the AM, users are forced to either have a friend to make sure dazed is maintained, or using DD to maintain dazed without sacrificing Pyro or Mass Terror. I'm not of the particular mindset that a form of DPSing should be so dependent on consumables or having a dedicated PI applicator.

Cryo power consumption seems to be 750 or 800 .. why so high?

About the SC's i think we should look for the movement mode SC's or the Iconic ones, super speed and flight have some SC's which may be promising compared to the Mental ones and both Iconics seens better than Mental too.

Uh I assume in your text you mean Mass Terror and not Mass Hysteria (which is a super charge). . . right?

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Or are you just saying that MH basically becomes pointless with an AM rotation? But yes I agree that I you shouldn't need 5 loadout slots. . .but like I said in my post before. . . I simply don't understand why you'd have both TK Push and TK Bolt in the 1st place b/c they are effectively the same power. . .and on top of that they are literally right next to each other in the tree which makes 0 sense.

That's why i noted that there should be another cone AoE Daze starter. . .

As far as SC. . . really most DPS I know don't even run with SC's unless it's one that gives power back or something like that. They just use Backup or Orbital as the substitue, there by keep the extra SC weapon damage and allowing more options for PI / dmg.

But that said. . . I do agree I'd like to see something else. . . too bad TK barrage is kinda lame.

Also in your 1st loadout. . .why bother carrying Mass Terror at all? Why not just Mass Lev? They are both basically the same power (right now which I hope changes), except 1 gives Terror and 1 gives Dazed.

Right now I'd drop Mass Terror, and probably Phantom Flames as well since you would just be overwriting the Pyro burning DoT (not the other DoT though, and maybe go to Menace and an SC.

I really can't stand the new Mass Terror though. . . I just think it's lame and I certainly don't want 2 powers that are almost identical.
I really really really want it to go back. . .

Yeah, thats what I'm saying, running AM with MH is pointless, having Pyro is better. For slight increase in damage you can use Dazing Device.

It does look like TK Push and TK Bolt are essentially the same move. Yeah TK Push hits slightly stronger though and its a move of lower tier ...

ML is inferior to MT in every aspect, its only viable for max range AM. Even with the provided PI bonus to TKP/TKB it still delivers much less damage than MT.

You can drop PF for PsyShock, but the damage will be slightly lower. Both TKP and TKB produce more damage than PsyShock even tough PsyShock gets extra dmg from the Terror PI. Thats another thing which makes no sense if you ask me.

Menace is another story, some suggested earlier its bugged along with Warped Reality and other similar moves, so dunno what to say about this move, except that I'm largely unimpressed. At the moment on Live Server Menace accounts for more dmg (5-8%) simply because of Pyro's burst for single target and how it interacts with PsyShock/PF WM crit. In the next GU we'll be loosing this burst along with the extra Menace damage, but we'll be gaining Cryo's extra dmg from Dazed, which is kind of a trade off, but it doesnt address the issue for Single Target.

I keep repeating the same stuff over and over and I feel like a broken record: Menace fix/rework, SuperCharges fix/rework, another viable Single Target Burst to replace Pyro's burst and interaction with Menace, AM with 4 power slots, 5% crit dmg to Telekinesis Tree, Cryo power consumption is insane, Moves without PI applied do more dmg that moves with PI applied (the case with PsyShock and TKP/TKB in MT AM) ... And these are just the tip of the iceberg, what of Horrific Visage, Reflect Pain and Invisibilty?

While here we are struggling to break 11k DPS for Mental AM, Ice goes almost to 16k DPS...

The Gu is close to hit live and most of Mental problems are not solved, we will keep T5 powers worst than Iconics, no viable SC, issues to apply PI and broken powers, besides all that the mental "AM" cant compete with other AM.

What would would you think of TK Push and TK Bolt switching damage, and having TK Push apply dazed?

For WM Mass Lev would be a good initial Dazed applicator, Cryo or TK Bolt would be the burst, and TK Push would be used to renew dazed.

More importantly, this would put dazed into the AM, and get rid of the DD dependence.

dude just read my post a page back. . .TK bolt/burst, whatever should apply dazed swap places with TB. Cryo amps resonance instead of TK bolt / burst, and change TK push to a pull since I love DCUO so mental has no pull ability. My previous post would be easy for them to implement and would solve most all these problems except the super charges and those who are not fans of having elemental powers in mental. but those problems become much more minimized with a decent tree and PI setup.

I think some would try to argue what I'm asking for would be too OP. . .but I keep looking over at Electricity which can stack 4 dots, has a pretty good AM, great PI (now). It's tree is largely correct/setup very well with most "utility" powers being placed in the tree at either the 2nd tier or down a column that no dps would ever touch. . .including wired being a 2nd tier power (flux though should be 2nd tier also for what it does). Since 60% powers are gone, Max Damage makes 35-40% dmg powers once again useable, giving electric (along with others) more options than it ever had in terms of single target and burst dmg.

Mental has for a long time had the worst CC as a troller including no pull, and as a DPS it's PI has always been super limited, as well as always having multiple sets of single person shields that really are not needed or reasonable.

btw i'm surprised your getting more out of Mass Terror, b/c I'm not at all. . . they both seem to give me close to the same dmg right now. . . that's kinda curious. But I still don't Mass Terror to be like that. . it's way better as it was with it's dots and simply have Mass Lev tweaked enough/correctly.

New powers won't be an option since there won't be FX support till GU 44.

As far as a pull, it isn't as necessary for trolls as it is for tanks, and if there were to be a pull it would probably be single target. Tanks pull everyone together. If a troll pulls, its to get a particular enemy away from everyone, and only in certain fights. Low pressure works if anyone who feels they need an AoE pull. You could argue that since the iconic single target pull also taunts, that getting a single target pull would benefit Mental when they have they opportunity to look at Invisibility and Reflect Pain when they have FX support.

Trollers' CC just got an upgrade as they now have access to an instant cast Mass Lev.

In regards to the numbers you are seeing with Mass Terror, are making sure the enemies you are hitting are in melee to mid range.

It hits at range so WM has a terror applicator that is not WM crit excluded.

This update is already lost for Mental, the only change we will see probably is related to Ice and that not concern to us. The question is:

-Mental will get a WIP for GU44?

-This new FX will be only for Psychic Resonance or we will have some changes for other powers?

-Is there any plan to improve Mental "AM"(use 5 powers in the loadout)?

-Any chances to improve the PI's application?

-Any plan to solve the excess of shields with no use PVP/PVE(light barrier(Green Lantern T3) is better than all Mental shields including Reflect Pain(T5)).

-Mental Sc's need some changes ASAP, even if there is a plan to replace then in GU44, at least a change on Mass Hysteria power cost.

Based on my own testing and a few other notable testers, it really looks like this AM's damage out is very weak in comparison to other AMs. It's probably too late but I have a suggestion: Decrease the resonance time and allow WM crits for the amplifying powers. That way we can at least get a weapon mastery crit from the first burst and at the same time, we won't have the luxury of being able to do WM for all of them AND get the big hit from MT.

seems to me the intent of the might based AM is to not have to use WM (or your weapon at all) and be able to compete...if mental's AM is underperforming (and not just something that has not been figured out yet), I think a better solution would be to bump the base damage of the amplifying powers slightly.

I agree with you, but since I'm hoping to get something done before the GU drops, I figured the stop-gap was an easier sell/engineering hurdle to overcome lol. Sad to say most other AMs are getting 11.5-13k while mental struggles to hit more than 10.5 . I think only fire is lower (comparing the powers to receive AMs since Fire) but I'm not sure.

OK 1st off. . .even-though in my post there are "new powers" they really are not new. They don't really need more than animations from other powers with slight color / particle adjustments. . .unless their system is so monolithic and hard coded (which I can't believe that it is even at SOE), it's not a lot of work to "create" said powers. . .it's the same as re-using map assets like they do now or how anytime they do make a new power you see lots of the same animations.

I also highly disagree about trollers not needing a pull. . . yes that's tanks' main job, but trollers are often needed to help (or forced too).
Further it goes back to the CC aspect of trolling in the 1st place. The best CC in this game is all about grouping up adds into one place, pulls (especially group ones) are very helpful for this. . . just like Singularity in quantam, besides being a defense debuff, also does this but at distance. . .it's hugely helpful teamwork. . .not too mention. . .almost all powers have a pull of some type. . .

Uh. . . no way. . Mass Lev would actually be worse. . not better . .only thing better is AoE multi-target Dazed PI, but not better CC at all.
Mental has all CC that's almost completely opposite of what you want. . .encasement == bad; stun also to some degree == bad since you cannot pull things into place when they are stunned; visage is only kinda sort ok. . but at the end is just a slightly better stun. . .you have no way to group up anything with mental at all. . .

All that and in turn you have 2 powers that have no business being where they are in the tree (TK shield, Reflect Pain), which are very close to absolutely useless. . .

And now you have an update that's actually done something nice with AM. . .but still as ways to g. . . and actually creating (at the moment) regressions in the powerset (2 powers that are exactly the same 1 on top of the other, menace being brought to 3rd tier only for cosmetic reasons, Mass Terror basically becoming Mass Lev), etc.

All that while still not addressing the fundamental problems that folks have wanted fixed for a long long time. . .

I just cannot abide . . .and like I said. . .what I"m talking about in my reply is really not that hard to do. . and would solve most of those problems and others. .

Well I was testing on dummies. ..perhaps i was too far away. . .i'll try that again.
Funny though I actually also cannot stand the idea of a power doing less damage at range A vs range B. . .that just makes things way to complicated.

The Tunso snip is interesting though. . . sad b/c there is no way I think this should go out. . .

What's funny is. . .the idea of Reflect pain is fine. . .that's not the problem. The problem is that it's stuck in the bottom Tier and comes with a high power cost for very very little reward and that's why most folks feel "it's garbage".

I don't understand what that means at all. . . what does Pyro have to do with Mass Terror? They are not even in the same tree or have the same PI. Sure maybe Pyro now gets some extra ticks but Mass Terror is only 1 tick/instant now.. .you still lost a DoT. Am I missing something?

Applying the dazing PI before using Pyro will give pyro an additional tick, this is what tunso was trying to say replaces the "MT tick" that the devs removed.

What it doesn't consider and why this AM is quite frankly 'very poor' is the flow on effect. MT was a primary move for inflicting the Terror PI that enhances Phantom Flames and Menace, primary moves in one of the best, if not the best mental WM rotations.

to apply dazing, you need to put something on your loadout that wasn't there before, meaning you're losing something like thought bubble in order to keep Mass Terror on your rotation, you're thereby stuck losing damage or changing to a "dazing WM rotation" which honestly isn't as good.

Or you're stuck doing the faceroll AM where you have to use the designated 5 moves that are set in stone.

This AM is so poorly thought out it's not even funny and it's even more demoralising seeing how weak it is compared to the other AM's.

I think it's probably time to give up expecting any significant changes before the GU drops or any time soon after that, even though HL has had what 3 re-works now to try and get its AM right you'd think they'd have learned by now.. But instead they're insistent on pushing out these broken updates.

As sad as it is to say I'll probably be changing from mental because this new update is not the mental I have enjoyed or will continue to enjoy playing and it's kind of sad DC are putting me in a position where I feel I have to spend money to continue enjoying the game..

If it's any consolation at least I got double SC to consider getting a power respec, but overall this whole mental AM is pretty disappointing to say the least.

That could work I guess. Or another option would be Pyro to apply Dazed since the DoT has to be applied every other rotation and thats exactly how long the PI lasts anyways, so it would be the perfect solution imo. In AM situation this would fit perfectly, in a WM situation you'd get rid of ML from your loadout which would open up some room for branching out. What we would need in this case is an equivalent strong single target burst like what Pyro is right now on Live Server. My vote goes to Horrific Visage, so this change would hit 2 birds with 1 stone. At the moment I cant see any reason why this idea wouldn't work, so any ideas and suggestions are welcomed.

Something else I've been thinking about. What makes Mental's AM different from other AM's is the 6 seconds window we have between closing the Res Cycle and starting a new one. So my line of thought was: ok lets try to put this in our advantage. I tried so many things to do in this window, charged blast into clipped solar flame (akin to what electric does in their AM), tried WM combo with a burst move, but nothing seems to come close to not using any weapon attacks, so starting a new Resonance Cycle as soon as possible is your best option... the problem is when PsyRes is active the WM crit bonus doesnt work for any move even for Cryo which isnt a Resonance amplifying move, Cryo doesnt even get the Dazed bonus when PsyRes is active... I just noticed this and I'm not sure if its intended or not. To me it looks like a bug, it makes no sense for Cryo not to get the extra dmg from Dazed when PsyRes is active or not to work within the WM crit window when PsyRes is active. I also tried replacing Cryo with Terror Tendrils, but they dont benefit from the WM crit window as well.

I've been avoiding any WM loadouts with Terror Tendrils because atm they are not splitting damage and I assumed this would be corrected, but since it hasnt been by now, I went in and tested a rotation with ML/Menace, Pyro, 2xCryo and 2xTT. The damage is very good, but like I said, I'm not sure if TT will make it in this state on Live. Thing is, even if it does, the practical use isnt that great anyways, the tendrils fly so slow so if the target changes position you'd be loosing a lot of damage, so in that sense I see it as a siuational high risk high reward kind of move. And the good thing about TT is that it works very well with Menace.