Test Discussion Swimming

That was not the point. The point was not being able to switch roles infight. Even in a 2-2-2-2 setup it could occur, that both tanks die and a third one would be neat.

Totally agree. As long as you CAN switch your role infight, I'm okay with that. Your goal should always be to not get into a situations where you need to switch ^_^

Agree with the sentiment, not with what was written
I actually loved it swimming around in atlantis. The effort with bubbles would be worth it, imo. It's just a mechanic, isn't it?

On another note, I wish our toons knew the magic to breathe underwater earlier. Would have saved me some random pug situations in Spindrift Station ^_^

That's the spirit! I'm going to hold you to that

Even if you have 12 buddies with 12 armories, it doesn't mean it isn't still just 10% of the population using armories.

'taking it away' that's a little bit hyperbolic don't you think, it's not like they've been removed from the game, they're effectively disabled in one instance and for a very good reason; critical environment immersion...

Thanks for implementing this. Regardless of what others say......I like you....

I just wanted to point out, if both tanks die, then the tanks are bad, or the healer is or possibly the troll is, more than likely even a combination of all. Either way there's some seriously bad play going on and that isn't cohesive team play nor is it particularly skillful to have all your players get wrecked and still expect to pass

Why cant you make swimming optional? Why if we hate swimming we have to be punished in the raid and alert?

All good Proxy

I rather ment something like both tanks die twice in elite over the course of the battle. Yeah happens, yeah maybe they need to improve their gameplay. Maybe they would like to beat the boss anyways?

Haha Oh I know it happens, but it gets to a point where the players have just gotta stop complaining and get better at what they're doing.

Like I said, if this was really about the fear of dying a little bit more give the players an extra life, if they're still not passing with that extra life they probably didn't deserve too and they can always run 2-2-2-2 as well.

Don't you have another "Elite Content is too hard" thread to make? Just kidding.

It's hard to say whether they are truly effectively disabled, we haven't even given the Bubble Mechanic the benefit of the doubt yet and folks are still rioting. Honestly, these negative replies are giving me the impression that folks are using Armories as constant saving grace for every time their 5-1-1-1 setup doesn't end up working out which concerns me.

I like armories don't get me wrong, but they shouldn't be an enabler for optimizing 5-111 groups. If you choose to run without a second tank, you shouldn't be able to avoid the punishment for it by switching to an armory on the fly. If you don't want to run with a second tank, your group should always have a harder time surviving.

Same thing goes if you run without a second healer, or a second controller, conditions for burn should better; but conditions for guaranteed raid survival should always be worse if you don't run 2-2-2-2.

Armories in my eyes, should always be used as a point to never return to the Watchtower to respec your toon. Armories should never be used as an enabler to save a 5-111 setup.

Is that your only argument? "oh they are complaining, they must be using 5-1-1-1".... NO ONE is using that set up in elite..... Not being able to use your armory in end game is game breaking, and with way Mepps worded it, it sounds like the bubbles arnt even in the boss fight rooms.....

Of course, I was more leaning along the lines of if the bubbles weren't even implemented, that obviously goes some way to resolving the situation anyway, it's a mechanic they'll just have to deal with.

I also agree I think people are using armories as a 100% crutch to support their 5-1-1-1 set up, they're stacking DPS in the first instance to increase burn and when that fails they're switching to reduce the burn, the reality is if they were more balanced in the first place the players probably wouldn't be dying in the first place.

Now that's not to say sometimes "**** doesn't just happen" in which case an armory can be good, but the hard reality is that in many circumstances the armories are being used to cover either a really bad set up in the first place or are being used to carry a player who a lot of the time died through their own mistake, again people make mistakes, but if they didn't the armories wouldn't be needed in the first place

Let's also bear in mind for someone to have to switch the individual that's caused the switch in the first place has died not once, but twice, that's two mistakes causing the switch, not just one.

If you cut those mistakes out then really this is all a non issue in the first place, hence my suggestion for an extra life under water. If a person makes three mistakes to cause a switch, start blaming that player, not the developes for disabling the armory.

Just my thoughts, of course the bubble may also be fine.

Would it be feasible for when you toggle your movement mode off that it would disable the swimming transformation and allow armories to be switched? Since we drop to the sea floor as if we were flying anyways could you write a line of code/rule that when in swimming transformation + toggle off movement mode = previous movement mode (flight, super speed, acro). Just a thought...

elite often requires various different set ups ranging from the potential of 5-1-1-1 all the way through to 3 tanks sometimes etc. etc. that's why I find it somewhat amusing people are scoffing at the suggestion 2-2-2-2 might be the viable set up here to overcome the armory limitations.

People are too busy complaining that the crutch in their armories has been removed rather than contemplating how to overcome the challenge of it all.

he soooo does not look happy lol

We already tried discussing this in the discord before you decided to leave out of frustration.



No It's not game breaking. We did plenty of old school raids, like Nexus, Dox, FOS, and so on and those didn't use Armories. We didn't even have Armories back then..

So why is content being restrictive on armories now any different? It shouldn't be... unless of course.. it's a saving grace.


And besides, I already told you.. The Bubble Mechanic isn't on test, so we can't really come to an conclusion on whether it works or not.

Fear-based talk isn't going to change my stance on swimming or armories in this matter.

For the record I have no issue with a raid being designed with 2-2-2-2 in mind. However, I do take issue with being forced to do 2-2-2-2 because the developers are forcibly, even if it is unintentional, taking away a feature of the game that I spent money on. Not once have I complained about a 2-2-2-2 set-up (hell...come to think of it I don't think I have ever complained about 2-2-2-2 on the forums). That particular concern was fabricated by someone else in this thread as a justification for allowing a flawed feature of the game be introduced.

This is completely on the developers not working out the issues with swimming prior to putting it into our hands and is not in anyway a problem created by the players. Look, I think swimming is an awesome feature and I want it to remain. However, I would prefer they fix the armory issue instead of just throwing it in the game incomplete or at the very least allow these so called "air pockets" or whatever to be included in Instance fights. Which of course we might get anyway.

I've seen groups do every formation in this current DLC. We ran 2 tanks, 2 heals, 1 troll, 3 DPS when Judas Contract dropped, and with all the nerfs and gearing up we started solo supporting both raids. It's to a point where we're attempting no heals in Machine E and got quite far actually, before we wiped on the last boss during the last phase.

People assume everyone's going to use the 2-2-2-2 formation but armories aren't the cause of that. Even if they don't work out I can guarantee groups will go in trying to solo the first day, I know I am. It's not because we think we're hard, It's because the supports like the challenge, and we like having fun like that. If it comes down to needing a different strategy, then so be it, It won't kill us. But having armories gives us a little freedom to switch out different loadouts if needed mid-fight, or picking up the slack if someone has an accident. It isn't a crutch for every group which is why It won't be the biggest deal if it doesn't work out, let's just wait out and see what the devs do.

Cause let's be real, within the first week of launch everyone's gonna come back on the forums and complain about elite and get it nerfed, especially all the groups that attempted to exploit this DLC with qwa-bombs and still couldn't get through.

I couldn't have said it better. Bravo my fren

it probably has already been stated but being able to switch armories mid fight has nothing to do with whether you go in 2-2-2-2 or 5-1-1-1. for our league we do elite 2 tanks, 2 heals, 3 dps 1 troll. however sometimes things go wrong, part of the group dies and people switch roles to account for that loss. saying you need to be 2-2-2-2 or 5-1-1-1 or w/e assumes no one dies on a boss fight which is not realistic. I am not a developer so I cant speak to the coding work required to make the change, but is it feasible to grant everyone a secondary movement mode, called swimming which goes into effect in designated areas instead of making it a form change.

I hope the "bubble" makes its way onto test in the coming days, certainly before the weekend. I'll reserve my judgement until after I've seen it in elite. I just want to point out, that switching armouries and shifting roles among group members is a fairly common thing, especially in elite content.