Stats Revamp 1.7

Which is why we need to test raids with various amounts of SP to establish those thresholds.

For all healer powers, I use power mastery and I do a battle heal spec for each.
These costs are simply ridiculous. Ludicrous. I can reach 60-75k power for my battle spec and I run bone dry with two controllers in my groups. I even use the 200 cost abilities more than the 300-450 costs except Celestial because those Power costs including multi inputs match or exceed 400 base power cost which is insane. Hell the core of every healer is AcB CS and that's 800 base power gone. Scaled up that's 27479 total power gone in one foul swoop or clip. That's insane. Fix it.
Nature is similar due to its pheromone mechanic. All that power going on pheromones for a bugged heal on Blossom or a weak burst on Flourish.

I tend to clip and neither my powerbar, Power mastery, bots, or controllers can handle it at all. I simply cannot retain any power whatsoever.

Whether or not it's the hybrid point or power point depends on the raid and playstyle. I found Hybrid Mastery with HB to be more power efficient for heavy cost rotations (clipping debuffs etc.) when compared to power mastery for a set power pool. Power Mastery, however, offers benefits from other circumstances. You'd be regenerating more power while blocking, more power during animation times, more power during pick-ups, etc. If you're standing there doing a linear rotation, hybrid mastery is ideal, but in realistic scenarios, it can be more convenient to go with power mastery. For people that don't like HB solar flame that prefer other weapon combos, power mastery is also their option for having that variety since power regen for different combos vary in how good they are in rotations. Different people have different timings in their rotations, and the weapons they want to use to keep track of their timings may not be good for regen. Some combos are clipppable, some aren't (dual pistols and rifle for example). Someone's who's gotten used to brawling weapon mastery from WM era and forward wouldn't be able to use that timing/combo because weapon mastery combos don't regen power either.

That's the thing. I think a dev stated somewhere (I never saw it, just heard it referenced) that they expect people to have the same skill points as their cr roughly, which means that we are not accounting for 190+cr, <150sp players. There are also players that like spec'ing into Power for support roles for their playstyle that benefit from it, but are forced to have extra skill points to do so while PftT isn't. If the principle is that you shouldn't have to sacrifice your main stat for power as stated by Avair as the reason to why PftT was given Might/Pow, that same principle can be applied to other roles.

Power costs in themselves are another argument. While group support stats with power does help with power costs, even if power costs were fine, there would be people still pushing to have it out of the convenience that it offers.

Crossing wires because they correlate, one is an impact of the other. The cost/scaling is why people feel they have to spec/mod power as support. DPS get the freedom of having power attached to their main stat, whether it's might, or if they're prec based and don't really need a lot of power. Support needs to spec separately into it, and keep in mind most support players now are pure builds as in they're full resto, full vit, or full dom, w/e. They're not going to like the idea of split modding which is essentially what you may have to do if things remain as they are.

Don't understand why the devs add power to a dps stat but leave out all support stats? Thought this revamp was about getting more support roles in raids? At this rate the raid at any skill level will be 5 hybrid dps, battle tank, full support heal, full support troll. Power should be added to do, resto, and vit.

I don't have time to hit my weapon to regenerate power because:

A. My power costs are a lot
B. My abilities don't really heal much in situations where there's a lot of in coming damage.

So when everyone's all of a sudden reduced to 30-40% health I have to clip multiple abilities costing more than 15% of my power bar to gain any traction in restoring their health pool in a timely fashion. I can't regen my power fast enough for the next set of incoming damage.

I don't know anyone who ever focused specifically modding/putting SP for power in the live servers (you don't have to on live because costs aren't as steep as on test), for test this isn't possible, if we spec power our healing output goes down the drain. Also even while using a weapon attack, most of my power regeneration would come from the controller dumping power, which again in the revamp is pretty much a non factor.

Contradicting yourself.
1. Mods/Generator mods are investments which Avair said we're shifting away from

2. You said that the power stat shouldn't matter in our build. Is build defined as skill points only? Considering that the update is "stats" matter, you would think that any source of stats would be considered.

3. That means that we're supposed to just ignore 10% extra power pool from 100sp put in Might/Pow after switching our mods to *support stat*/*power* and working and crafting generator mods. That's just taunting...

4. "focus on it with their mods/generator mods" could've been the response to PftT players, but you didn't give them that response. You caved and gave them skill points as well. You wanted to simplify dps balance and tried to keep the power cost formula the same so you brushed off the actual issue and gave them a band-aid to their problem and didn't do anything for everyone else that had the same issue.

5. There's no point in adding masteries to specify your playstyle preference when you just said that "This is how most support roles play on live and how most will continue to play in the stats revamp." That sounds like a "we don't care how you want to play, you're going to play this way." If we were going to have that type of mentality, why did you even put dps testers through 1.1-1.7 trying to dps balance weapon only and pftt when you could've just said "Hybrid is how most dps roles played before WM and AM era on live and how most will continue to play in the stats revamp."

Not sure how to take this sentiment. The rule of thumb has been for a long time to keep your SP roughly equivalent to your current cr value....independent of the cr differential effects. It's an easy rule to keep in mind and not a hard one to follow if you're playing the game and pursuing feats regularly.

So then, if SP plays a key factor in your ability to perform (as it should since that's the point considering revamp started out as #StatsMatter), players who have chosen not to pursue stats according to the rule should be struggling. SP earned above and beyond the equivalent number to you cr would be, as you say, a bonus that makes you more effective.

If I'm reading it wrong, I apologize, but the way you've written seems to suggest you want your gear to be the main stat contributor and everything else (mods, sp) is bonus on top; which is the exact opposite of what the revamp is all about. If that's not what what you're saying, I look forward to a clarification.

So you're telling me support roles should have to sacrifice their main Stat to obtain more power to accommodate for the power costs set? DPS didn't have to sacrifice their main Stat for more power to use a pftt build why should support? It's not like we can pick "cheaper" power costs and still effectively do our jobs. With special forces power generator mods it still doesn't give you enough power to afford the costs of playing support roles in this current phase of reavmp for celestial healing or atomic tanking.

Considering one of the main purposes of the revamp was to open options between play styles, it's frustrating to read Mepps posts above. Most support players on live use weapons because that's all they can do. No other options are given unless you're atomic, celestial, or HL and know how to battle role. It's discouraging support won't get the same freedom dps has in choosing their own way of playing, being shoe-horned into one spec and play style. Tanks right now are the only non-damage role that can get away from straying from the norm.

I pray for trolls and healers when this update goes live.

I haven't had much time to test, but my thought on the masteries for support roles was that they should at least mostly used hybrid mastery. With power mastery you need a large power pool, because your passive regeneration is based off of you power pool size (if I remember correctly). But with the power stat being tied to might, it's harder for support roles to get without large amounts of sp. So hybrid mastery made more sense to me, and would play the same with how trolls and healers regen power today (and tanks get to hit things with their weapons between using powers to maintain ago), but with any improvements that the system on test has added. The only issue may be combo powers in support role in a very busy fight like sm.
All I've been able to test support role wise is ice tank with hybrid mastery in some open world content. And it felt better than live, but that was a few updates ago.

What I mean is getting more power shouldn't be mandatory, whilst gaining stat increases for your main stat, resto/dom, vit/dom/, health/dom should definitely benefit from gaining more SP.

They've made it so whatever tier of play you're at your abilities will always cost a set % of your power bar, this % is way too high, you can spec for power but the reduction in total cost relative to your overall power pool isn't that significant.

I specced my SP for Might and Power as well as modding Resto and Power just to see, I was able to have a few more casts but the effectiveness of my healing went down the toilet to where I'd basically need to be spamming a lot more which effectively cancels out the investment I made to the stat because it's going to be a struggle to gain it all back since the power return, may it be from trolls or your own regeneration mechanic isn't strong enough until you're out of combat.

Ok, I see what you're saying. But that's only half the story. It's the relationship between power costs in terms of % and how effectively you can regen your power. You can have double the power cost on all your powers and it would be just fine as long as whatever role/stance you're in can regen it fast enough so that you're not forced to stop and wait every 20 seconds or so.

^That's understood and I don't think anyone would argue there. I guess the next step would be to understand what are the use cases where you would need to heal at a rapid or sustained pace and there is no troller present? It's not solos because there would be no point to entering a solo set up exclusively to heal. Duos? Maybe bu unlikely unless you intend to have your partner do all the dps work which would make the duo take significantly longer and pug wouldn't have the patience for that in a lot of cases.

That leaves alerts and raids. Do you anticipate that in alerts or raids you would be running as full healer, spamming mid- to high-cost powers a fast and sustained pace without a troller present? Once we get a better idea of understanding the situations this is a problem, you have a better chance at getting at a reasonable solution. Doesn't make sense to spend energy for solutions to scenarios that rarely or never happen, so where are the common alerts or raids where this would be a problem?

You guys mind running raids with us on test? At this point that's the only way I think we can get you to see our PoV.

I haven't solo healed a raid but for both my Control and Healer armories I specced as Hybrid mastery. And I also specced split vit/power and resto/power. We have always had more than enough Resto on live to heal effectively.

Oh boy, where do I start..

Point 1:
Seriously mepps, listen to the testers. Power Scaling is out of wack, I'll agree with everyone else that's stated it.

If "Stats" are supposed to matter after this update, then power scaling should go up the more you progress; but it's backwards. The more you progress, the less power you'll gain.
What is the meaning of this? and before I continue, as everyone else knows; The more gear you have; the better your stats will be. So how this stuff is messing up makes absolutely no sense.


Now on to point 2: What's with this response? I thought the whole point of the Stats-revamp was do three things:

• Make 3 playstyles viable. PFTT, weapons, Hybrid.
• Make more people want to play support role.
• Make support roles more needed.

Having Support Roles consume 450 power and beyond is not gonna make people want to play support, It's gonna be the exact opposite it's gonna alienate people from wanting to play healers, tanks, and even controllers if this thing goes live with this mentality.
On Live Sure the Power cost is there, but it's tolerable; way more tolerable than what we have on test.
Alot of people want to use Battle Support, you guys were so intent on making this stuff viable for tanks; yet healers and trollers get the boot.
There's People I know that Like Battle Trolling With HL, There's people I know that like battle healing with celestial. Even before the stats-revamp became here. What you just said about Hybrid makes it seem like Battle support is dead, so is the 3 playstyles just for DPS?... speaking of.
Point 3: Why are dps getting all the good stuff?
So I ask again, is this revamp supposed to make support roles more fun and more needed? or is playing a support role gonna become a tedious chore? If so, I'mma halt from doing any further testing.
I enjoy electricity healing on live, but the idea of manging power, favoring DPS, and seeing all those high costs; it doesn't make me want to heal.
And last but not least, You want support roles to use Hybrid only? That's flawed.. Very Flawed. You're asking the Support Roles to get additional power and the only way we can do that is through specing into might that we'll never use.
You said people on live spec into weapon combos and you'll find more success on the revamp, and yet weapons only take advantage of precision.
Furthermore: Support roles don't use the DPS stats, certainly not might.
TL;DR: Please rethink it over, If it comes down to this; I'm just not gonna heal or play any support role on live. Because it sounds like support roles will be nothing but tedious chores.. Especially controllers.

All that really needs to be said, exactly what trolling is right now.