Counter Immunity Removal

I must say this is one incredible flip olivia pope isnt as good as you lol

Again as Ace stated earlier, most of these issues that your described are not based in immunity. They're based in imperfections in the powers themselves. Redesigning the core of PvP wouldn't help fix this, because the powers will still be just as equally imbalanced with a different core. A better idea would be to focus on bringing the powers closer to within range of each other's potency in PvP.

The problem with that argument is to achieve Munitions full potential, you need to follow through with the am which is nearly impossible in pvp without immunity, which goes back to the previous point discussed, certain powers will suffer because of this.

We can agree Fire tanks are great at staying alive in pvp, but how do you come to the conclusion that immunities are the problem and not the fire tank buff itself?

Would you be fine with immunities if fire tanks were fixed in pvp?

Against someone thats immunity farming they are constantly spamming block you are bound to get blocked because thats all they are looking to do in the first place how can that be considered failure. Their whole objective is to get in this immunity window they have catered their whole fighting style to it only because they will become immune. Going against a group you will get blocked by someone your not even targeting now imagine the whole group is immunity farming.

If the whole group is immunity farming it means a couple of things

Your team has so much dps they are looking for a way to survive and you basically made them crap their pants
Or
They have no intention of putting any pressure on you and they have basically surrendered to your team.

Full potential munitions is good without all the channeled abilities so to say it will suffer is a bit of a stretch.

Fire tanks are great and can easily be beat as long as you dont allow them to counter you at all because if they grab an immunity they can fill their health bars back up. So to answer you it is not the buff or the power its the immunity that amplifies the powers healing abilities by preventing them from taking damage.

To answer you final question No. I personally think immunity in the pvp arena circumvents certain mechanics and turns whats supposed to be a action packed event into a turtling fest. Ive watch fnl and scrim uploads and see ppl not even really attacking until they obtain immunity.

How does immunity help them fill their bar? I mean sure its a shield for 2.8 seconds but they can fill their health up just as well without a counter.

The people who are cautious and tend to turtle up will get destroyed by a player with a half decent reaction time.

"Turtling" is so punishable though. Predict and learn your opponents tendencies to block and then punish them with a BB. Do you find countering someone with a BB combo to somehow be less action packed then hitting someone with your melee combos?

I haven't read this whole thread because it's quite long, but funny I never saw anything about the RPS system. If they're trying to bring back the glory days, why stop at immunities?

So immunity is the core of pvp thou. As long as you attack fire tanks and they can take damage they will not heal as much its when they gain immunity when they heal the most. So how isnt immunity the issue? Same goes for healers fighting a sorc they will not heall all the way up unless they grab an immunity which prevents damage allowing them to gain more health. So common sense makes it clear it isnt fire or sorc its the fact that they can gain immunity to prevent damage.

A fully geared Fire Tank can fill up their health bar after they've been countered themselves. You have be very bad to lose as only HL, Rage, and Nature have any hope of burning them down fast enough, and that is with usually getting several times the counters the Fire Tank gets.

It shouldn't take obviously unbalanced Dps powers to deal with another unbalanced power.

No one would turtle in a meta where people blockbreak on reaction. Good players have to be aggressive in order to trick another good player into blocking, which requires attacking them. I just checked the last arena FNL back from FNL, and I couldn't see any turtling through all the Electricity, Nature, Rage, Sorcery, and HL attacks going off. In the last legends FNL I was too busy watching Clutch blockbreak Shaw to think, wow blocking must be winning them this match.

Preventing damage and the amount of healing recieved are not connected at all. You don't get some OP Resto buff when you get a blue. In your personal experience you've probably faced opponents who wait until the blue immunity just so they can focus on weapon combos and not their abilities when they don't have one. Either way, the same amount of healing is going to go out. The issue here is the amount of healing that they're putting out, not the fact that they know how to counter you or that they tend to wait til they get a blue.

Your right but there are other variables included with bb like latency, your weapon things you have to worry about cause if you miss your bb you can be countered to the they have immunity anyway. its not about countering and melee being action pack or not just pvp revolving around this immunity is what takes away from the action.

It is a little off topic as this thread is about counter immunities.

The idea of returning the rps system has been suggested and tossed around before. I believe Xtroid made a thread about role balance not too long ago where it would be perfect to discuss it further.

If you miss your BB then you need to work on you reaction times. That's what action fighting is all about - predicting, reacting to, and countering your opponents moves. How would it be more actiony to just sit and spam my rotations to see who can put out the most DPS to kill the other? If I wanted to do that I would just go parse on the sparring targets. I know latency is an issue. I run DC on 1.1 up and .5 down and I still manage to play competitively. It's an obstacle, but a personal one at that.

I guess all the hl users throwing light weight care about the game aye. Be realistic the community enjoys cheesy mechanics to exploit they can careless about the state of the game.

And if there are no immunities you'll probably get countered either way. If we are talking about 1v1s immunities really dont matter unless you use a breakout ability, if you get countered you are on your back for duration of the immunity.

I would think with no immunity in order to survive you would have to be strategic with everything you do which would be more realistic which a action packed fighting game. Imagine street fighter or mortal combat with immunities for blocking an attack you cant right. An I bet you managing to play competitvely involves a whole lot of immunity farming.

The single biggest reason why people have left competitive PvP scene in droves because they do not trust the developers of this game. The developers seldom listen to the top PvP players (1), yet for long periods of time most of the best players in the game were the Pvpers. Just look at who authored many of the original guides. There is a reason for that. PvP in a pre-made competitive or semi-competitive level is far tougher that any raid they can design by virtue of the fact that players are playing against other players. In other words, the content adapts and improves. That environment hones abilities unlike any other climate in the game.

Yet too frequently these folks insights are often discarded and miscast as "skill-less", "exploits", ect. If these things are so skill-less, like screen blocking, then why are the barriers to entry for competitive PvP apparently so high for new players? Do you see how flawed that logic is? If screen blocking was skill-less, then every noob should know how to do it. They don't though and it's not intuitive, there is a learning curve to learn to mitigate that tactic, ergo why it's referred to as "skill". And for exploits, they don't go unnoticed in this community. Everyone is hyper aware of those things, they aren't keep secret for very long because of how the competition evaluates defeat -- 'how did we lose, how can we adapt?' And the community often please for these things to be fixed. PvPers are about competition and a preservation of competition.

When immunities were initially introduced, plenty of the top people levied their critiques against the developer's arguments in the defense of immunities. Some of a developer's [sic /singular] responses were downright disrespectful for the amount of time and energy people invested into this game, and time they spent trying to convey why immunities (in that initial form) were not a good idea. Now, finally three years later when immunities have reached a point where they've been honed into a good spot (appears to be the consensus of this thread), the development team wants to do away with them using the very same logic they stubbornly refused years ago. That is case and point why people leave this game. And do you know who is once again missing/ignored from this discussion? Some of the best Pvpers in the community, who literally devote much time to trying to improve the PvP community. This is not good business practice.

It's obvious that there are certain consensuses to be had from the various threads about what folks generally want for PvP. First and foremost, end game players hold the the meta of immunities sacred. Any power set or character or weapon that jeopardizes the sanctity of that meta, i.e. can have sustained success without obeying or risking immunities, are not good for the game. The problem is that this game monetizes those imbalances. That's called a conflict of interest and under no uncertain terms people try not to do business with folks who do that. Everyone who has commented in this thread, myself included, desperately wishes and wants this game to succeed. We are not against the game making money. However when these sort of things go unaddressed and money is made from them, what are people suppose to think? If the game is charging for it, then it obviously must not be that important to the developers of the game. I don't recall ever getting a refund on a power change or movement mode token.

So if you want to know how to bring players back to community, decide on a vision that you want for the scene and the talk to the top players about it. The Pvp community is not shy about their opinions and in general are pretty analytical and articulate. Those attributes go hand in hand with becoming a good player. Totally re-orienting/removing the meta of pvp like what's been done before and is about to be done again is a drastic and rash move. I would urge you to take the initiative to be the liaison of this community instead of the ardent defender of your own preferences. What would bring people back to the community is a strong vision and plan of action to actualize that vision, one that represents the wishes of the community, and one that provides a digestible learning curve for new and returning players.


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(1) How do we find out who the top PvPers are? Through the tournaments and competitive matches. There literally didn't even need to be a ranking system programmed into the game, just bi-weekly sanctioned matches that are taped and reviewed by third parties. I am sure at one point there would have been folks lining up to help a cause like that. I don't know how viable this would be now, considering the population, as you asserted, is nowhere near what it use to be.

(2) Top potentially defined as top 15 leagues per server, not that all leagues will participate

The only way to survive an onslaught of players without immunity is option A Rely 100% on your healer or B RUN!